2012-2013 Off-Season Player Movement Discussion

Discussion in 'MLS: News & Analysis' started by OleGunnar20, Nov 3, 2012.

  1. Balerion

    Balerion Member+

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    Hertzog scored a ton of goals on loan in the USL this season. There's no guarantee that success at that level would translate to MLS, but that's exactly what a young player is supposed to do with that sort of opportunity. Hopefully he gets a chance somewhere else.


  2. theENFORCER

    theENFORCER Member

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    Yes, but with NYRB it seems to be a bit different with how young players are treated. It was reported that last year some of our young players(kassell, Hoti) were just holding traffic cones in practice and basically just used to get over the roster limit.

    My main issue is with Ruthven who played wonderfully when he started due to injuries. We had three shutouts with him in the starting 11 and he played well for a inexperienced CB who had little time to gel. Much better than some of the players who played over him(miller and marquez come to mind) but yet he never played again for the rest of the season.... and then we started to leak goals left and right again...

    He's cheap, young and I think he'll be a good 3rd/4th option CB atleast..
  3. cthomer5000

    cthomer5000 Member+

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    Doesn't Hertzog count 0 against the cap? Why release him? There is no way he'll be graduated from Gen Adidas.
  4. Zman Gunner

    Zman Gunner BigSoccer Supporter

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    It looks like Hertzog graduated from GA after just 2 seasons of minimal playing time after Dallas showed some interest in him.

    Daniel Robertson@DRobertsonFCD
    Just off the phone with Schellas and he interestingly noted that they were interested in Hertzog but he's graduated from Generation adidas


  5. OleGunnar20

    OleGunnar20 Member+

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    that is totally inconceivable ... it goes against every single thing the GA program is supposed to be and every single precedent that the GA program has set.
  6. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

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    SOP for MLS then, so why is it so inconceivable?
  7. OleGunnar20

    OleGunnar20 Member+

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    i guess this is what happens when your new COO mouths off about NYC2 being a bad idea ... MLS takes is clandestine opaque lack of rules and uses them to screw you.
  8. lkgf09

    lkgf09 Member

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    Wait I though MLS always conspires to help RB.
  9. OleGunnar20

    OleGunnar20 Member+

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    no, they always conspire to help AEG :)
  10. Chesco United

    Chesco United Member

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    Well, looks like Beckham is gone from LA after MLS Cup.
  11. chapka

    chapka Member+

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    Not really. It's early, but not ridiculously early. Josh Lambo and Fuad Ibrahim are comparables from the last few years. Hertzog came out late (as a junior), is older than many if not most GA graduates, and had plenty of minor league playing time, so it's not like his five Red Bull appearances are all the GA decisionmakers had to go on.

    Also, cutting Hertzog loose at 22 makes sense based on the program's goals. If Hertzog had stayed in school, 2012 would have been his rookie season. GA gave him cover while he would have been in school, and a leg up on his age cohort, who he was competing against last year. If he couldn't earn playing time competing against players his age who stayed in school, I think that's a different matter than an 18-year-old who can't earn playing time against 25-year-olds.

    In other words: GA is intended to protect kids who come out early, not to protect kids who don't succeed even after they would have graduated.

    I also think we're going to see players graduating younger going forward. MLS has signaled that they're going to be tightening the reins on non-homegrown GAs and pushing GA money towards homegrown signings. The new normal for GA is not a 20-year-old college junior like Hertzog, it's a 17-year-0ld high school senior. That means the new normal will have to be Jack McInerney graduating at 20 and Amobi Okugo graduating at 21, not Nico Colaluca hanging on until he's 24.
  12. OleGunnar20

    OleGunnar20 Member+

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    Josh Lambo became GA at the beginning of the 2008 season, he didn't graduate until the end of 2011 ... that is the full 4 seasons.

    Fuad Ibrahim became GA at the beginning of the 2007 season, he didn't graduate until the end of 2010 ... that is the full 4 seasons.

    Players the same age or older who were in the GA class of 2010, the year before Hertzog, who still haven't graduated yet:
    Ike Opara
    Andrew Wiedeman
    Corben Bone

    you can also check out the historical data from climbing the ladder ... nobody has EVER graduted GA (or the earlier Proj 40) with fewer than 1800 minutes over thier first two seasons (the lowest was Santino Quaranta from 2001 class with roughly 900 min each of the first two seasons).
  13. chapka

    chapka Member+

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    The Climbing the Ladder list is a list of only players who got at least 500 minutes in the first two years. I don't know if there are any players who graduated after two years with fewer than 500 minutes, but if there are, they won't be on that list.

    That said, I don't see the point of keeping players around for four years if their team isn't interested in developing them. Alex Nimo graduated after three years in the program, at age 20, with 0 minutes played. I don't see a huge jump from that to Hertzog's two years at age 22 with 35 minutes played, especially given the new focus on homegrowns.

    Also: a lot of people are assuming that Hertzog was cut because he graduated. It's likely that this works the other way around, too: if New York was planning to cut him, that makes it an easier call for the HG committee to close the book on him early.
  14. OleGunnar20

    OleGunnar20 Member+

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    the last part is the only thing i agree with, rob valentino and bryan arguez never technically "graduated" but left the league before doing so and essentially stopped being GA by doing so.

    i suspect that RBNY did something incredibly stupid and cut Hertzog despite him still being GA and despite he was in ZERO danger of being graduated at the end of the season (based on the fact that nobody, ever, in the GA program had been graduated after 2 years with less than 1800 minutes). once cut, he is no longer under contract with the league, thus he is no longer on a GA contract. something like that.
  15. profiled

    profiled Moderator Staff Member

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    http://www.soccerbyives.net/2012/11...ation-how-mls-has-tweaked-its-ga-program.html

    FlashMan repped this.
  16. Ismitje

    Ismitje Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Also: if it was that dumb a move from NYRB, surely Herzog on a guaranteed contract with no cap hit would have been picked up by some other team. All dumb or none dumb in this case IMO.
    Jasonma repped this.
  17. OleGunnar20

    OleGunnar20 Member+

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    well as pointed out above only 2 years were garaunteed and the other two were options. RBNY still could have picked up the option and he'd still be on the GA contract because he didn't play enough to graduate based on performance.

    they still threw away a player they could have had for nothing on the cap.

    the difference is now the player is no longer under a GA contract because the final year/two years of the GA contract weren't exercised so the GA contract ran out (in the past the GA contract would only run out after 4 years) ... that isn't exactly graduating as much as just getting dumped out of the program.

    the interesting question is that since he still had GA option years on his contract that RBNY could have chosen to exercise why didn't they? did MLS force them to not exercise the optional GA contract years?

    very superficial reporting by SBI tho that is no surprise.
  18. Ismitje

    Ismitje Super Moderator Staff Member

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    And anyone could have made the extension, but didn't? Why is this all on NYRB and not everyone - or wasn't Herzog good enough?
  19. OleGunnar20

    OleGunnar20 Member+

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    i am not sure contract extensions and waivers work that way. not that MLS has clearly published rules or anything. but it would seem to me that any MLS player under contract who has optional years that their team does not exercise is essentially out of contract with MLS when they are waived. meaning any team that picks them in some sort of waiver draft has to essential negotiate and have the player sign an entirely new contract with MLS. the exception being those players with sufficient age and tenure to be eligible for the re-entry draft which has its own special rules about what salary you have to offer the essentially out of contract "free agent" based on what round you take them in.

    if that is the case then RBNY could have exercised the optional GA contract years, thus keeping Hertzog a free player on the off budget roster, but when they decided not to Hertzog basically was out of contract with MLS and any team that took him in the waiver draft would have had to negotiate and sign him to a new contract ... just like they will now if they pick him up as a free agent.

    at least that is my interpretation. it might be nice if some professional journalist did their job and asked tough and complete questions and made MLS give complete, concise and clear answers.
  20. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

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    Or, you know, you could just take the time to look at the rules on the MLS website...

    http://pressbox.mlssoccer.com/content/2012-mls-waiver-draft

    Balerion repped this.
  21. OleGunnar20

    OleGunnar20 Member+

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    that isn't the only part of this transaction that needed further clarification ... the clarification was why did RBNY not chose to pick up the optional two GA years? did MLS HQ make that decision? why wasn't another team allowed to pick Hertzog in the waiver draft and "automatically exercise" the optional GA contract years?
  22. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

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    Yeah, but when you start with this:

    While the published rules are out there, it makes the rest of your post sound like just another one of your rants.
    HailtotheKing repped this.
  23. Oobers

    Oobers Member+

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    Tod Palmer@todpalmer
    Vermes: Espinoza called to say he was going to Wigan. Thanked the Honduran MF for years of service and left door open for his return.
  24. Buzz Killington

    Buzz Killington Member+

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  25. Oobers

    Oobers Member+

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    From junior college to the EPL. Great for not just him but MLS as well.

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