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2012 MLS Referee Assignments and Discussion [Rs]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by La Rikardo, Jan 7, 2012.

Moderators: IASocFan, MassachusettsRef
  1. GoDawgsGo

    GoDawgsGo Member

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    Should that matter?

    I don't think that it should. I can see how some would disagree, especially at the professional level, but to me endangering the safety of an opponent doesn't take in to consideration whether you knew that opponent was there or not. You take the risk when you launch yourself into a bicycle kick imo.
     


  2. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

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    Part of me wants to agree with you, but the other part of me says "isn't that really what reckless means?"
     
  3. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator Staff Member

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    But the guy launching in to head the ball is taking a risk, too... particularly if he sees that his opponent is lining up to take the bicycle kick.

    This involves two debates that I think we've had before. The first is whether or not "endangers the safety of an opponent" applies to fouls other than "tackles." I think it does not, and that the Laws are pretty clear on that. If it did apply to kicking and other fouls, wouldn't nearly all bicycle kicks that make contact with an opponent be red cards and not just the one with violent ends, since we punish the nature of an action, not the result?

    Anyway, we might end up debating this point again, but I think "excessive force" (and "brutality," for VC) is the only standard you can use to get to a red card for SFP on a foul other than a tackle. So you have to ask yourself if there was "excessive" force in this bicycle kick--that's the second debate. I think it's a judgment call and we don't have a lot of instruction to go on in this realm. If the attacker is looking at the ball the whole time, has no idea someone else is challenging and gets beat to the ball... then I have a hard time saying it's a red card. But if there's an argument that he should have known it was a contested ball and launched himself in anyway, then, yes, a bicycle kick is "excessive force" compared to the other methods by which he could have challenged.

    In the end, it's an orange card area. Grajeda first reaching for red and then going yellow, based partly at least on the reactions of everyone around, makes perfect sense here.

    If I remember correctly, there was a similar incident involving a scissors kick in the World Cup. Knockout stages, involving the Dutch (either the Brazil or Uruguay match?). There was some debate here about a red, but the consensus seemed to be yellow.
     
  4. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member

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    Updated through all matches played as of March 25:

    Code:
    [b]Referee             Matches   Yellow   Y/Game  Reds   R/Game[/b]
    GEIGER, MARK		  3	  12	 4.00	  2	0.67
    Gonzalez, Jorge		  3	   8	 2.67	  0	0.00
    Grajeda, Hilario	  3	  12	 4.00	  0	0.00
    Kadlecik, Mark		  1	   5	 5.00	  0	0.00
    MARRUFO, JAIR		  2	   7	 3.50	  0	0.00
    Okulaja, Abiodun	  1	   4	 4.00	  0	0.00
    Penso, Chris		  1	   4	 4.00	  0	0.00
    PETRESCU, SILVIU (CAN)	  3	   4	 1.33	  1	0.33
    TOLEDO, BALDOMERO	  3	   6	 2.00	  0	0.00
    SALAZAR, RICARDO	  3	   9	 3.00	  0	0.00
    Stott, Kevin		  3	   9	 3.00	  0	0.00
    [b]ALL REFEREES		 26	  77	 2.96	  3	0.12[/b]
     


  5. DudsBro

    DudsBro Member

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    In regards to "endangering the safety of an opponent" bit of the debate:

    At the classroom portion of our weekly training sessions, and at the recent Regional clinic I attended, we use material directly from FIFA. When we're doing video clips, one of the regular "considerations" (FIFA's word) is 'did the player put the opponent in a dangerous situation' or 'did the player endanger the safety of the opponent.' Initially when I saw that and the collective answer was a "yes" I assumed FIFA would always mandate a red card. However, FIFA seems to be using both of those criteria to determine no card/caution decision too.

    In FIFA's eyes, you can put the opponent in danger without it being a red card. (Though to be honest, I don't remember specifically when this was used in terms of tackling, kicking, charging, or any of the other fouls)
     
  6. MetroFever

    MetroFever Member

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    Gonzalez got himself in hot water with his application/non-application of "advantage" on several occasions:

    1. Red Bulls Dane Richards is fouled near the penalty area. As the ball goes towards McCarty, Gonazalez signals "advantage" thinking he'll get a shot off, but McCarty never winds up touching the ball and the Rapids clear the ball out.

    Immediately upon the clearance, chaos ensues as Rafa Marquez commits a retaliatory foul drawing a yellow card, Henry chases down Gonzalez and gets in his face and Lindpere picks up the ball and punts it away:

    http://www.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2012-03-25-ny-v-col/highlights?videoID=180227


    2. Rapids Tony Cascio's jersey is pulled, but immediately breaks free and turns toward the Red Bulls goal and has a 4 v 3 opportunity, but Gonzalez quickly blows the whistle in order to issue a yellow card. Cascio is clearly not happy, despite the fact that he knows that Solli has been carded since an attack was snuffed:

    http://www.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2012-03-25-ny-v-col/highlights?videoID=180210
     
  7. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator Staff Member

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    I think it's important to note that, unless I'm remembering incorrectly, the sequence of your two points above are reversed. I say that only because I think the quick whistle for the card in #2 made him more eager to try to apply advantage in #1. Doesn't make it right, of course, but from a psychological perspective it might explain why one mistake led to a second mistake.
     
  8. GlennAA11

    GlennAA11 Member

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    yes, the sequence was the other way around. There were one or two other advantages for Colorado that he took away by calling the foul too quickly before that as well.

    Not his greatest match I think.

    Okulaja actually looked OK in his match...at least the parts I saw. The PK was a good call. He even hustled over to an evolving foul in the corner opposite the AR when you could tell it was building. Good recognition there. I was wondering as the play developed if he would get close and sure enough he entered the picture and did.
     
  9. Law5

    Law5 Member+

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    Where was Songo'o looking? The ball or the opponent?

    "endangering the safety of an opponent" is not a send off offense. Serious foul play is the only possibility here and it was very clear from the player's body language that Songo'o was simply trying to score, yes, in a reckless manner (note what happened two or three seconds before this play), which is why he got yellow, rather than nothing, but excessive force would, IMHO, be a real stretch here. We have to judge misconduct by what the player did, not by how much the opponent was injured in the process.
     
  10. IARef96

    IARef96 Member

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    I think he improved a great deal in the second half. It appeared as though he was 10+ yards away from the PA when he called the PK, but he performed well overall.
     
  11. Ihateusernames

    Ihateusernames Member

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    He also covered the center circle quite well. :cool:
     
  12. LongDuckDong

    LongDuckDong Member+

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    "endangering the safety of an opponent" is one of the definitions of serious foul play, is it not?
     
  13. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

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    See post 228. And then look at the actual language.
     
  14. smitha96

    smitha96 Member

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    I just saw Gonzales' performance today. I have been blacked out on MLS live for the last 48 hours so it only became available today. Apologies for weighing in a little late.

    For what it's worth, I thought these were the biggest mistakes that we have seen MLS to date.
     
  15. DudsBro

    DudsBro Member

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    Friday, March 30
    7:30PM EDT (NBC Sports)
    DC Unites vs FC Dallas - Hilario GRAJEDA / Bill DITTMAR / Matthre KREITZER / Andrew CHAPIN

    Saturday March 31
    2:00PM EDT (TSN)
    Toronto vs. Columbus - Geoff GAMBLE / Eric PROCTOR / Kevin DULIBA / Silviu PETRESCU

    4:00PM EDT (TSN)
    New York vs. Montreal - Michael KENNEDY / Kermit QUISENBERRY / Paul SCOTT /Daniel FITSGERALD

    4:00PM EDT
    Philadelphia vs. Vancouver - Elias BAZAKOS / Claudio BADEA / Corey PARKER / Jose Carlos RIVERO

    10:00PM EDT
    Seattle vs. San Jose - Mark KADLECIK / Ian ANDERSON / James CONLEE / Ramon HERNANDEZ

    10:00PM EDT
    Portland vs. Real Salt Lake - Mark GEIGER / Sean HURD / Steven TAYLOR / Tyler PLOEGER

    11:00PM EDT (NBC Sports)
    LA vs. New England - Ricardo SALAZAR / Peter MANIKOWSKI / Jeff MUSCHIK / Armando VILLARREAL
     
  16. bluetooner

    bluetooner Member

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    I take it you didn't see the Colorado v Philadelphia game and Geiger/his assistant's terrible terrible performance?
     
  17. billf

    billf Member+

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    The only thing I recall there was the early foul on Mwanga that went uncalled.
     
  18. La Rikardo

    La Rikardo Member+

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    Does anyone else find it odd/noteworthy that Geoff Gamble got a CR before either Gantar or Ward this season?
     
  19. GlennAA11

    GlennAA11 Member

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    MLS still not enforcing the snood ban. :)
     
  20. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator Staff Member

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    Great officiating (at least, I think!) to keep the flag down on Montreal's first goal today:

    http://www.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2012-03-31-ny-v-mtl/highlights?videoID=180783

    Got to believe there was some sort of communication between Kennedy and Quisenberry regarding who touched the last ball that was played toward goal. Either way, great patience by Quisenberry--if he had no help from Kennedy, that's an even more amazing call.
     
  21. GlennAA11

    GlennAA11 Member

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    Henry's 3rd goal looked very offside to me though. At the time Cooper took the initial shot Henry seemed to be beyond the 2LD. there was one good replay that was from a high enough angle.
     
  22. MetroFever

    MetroFever Member

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    Henry was definitely offside. Video is here:

    http://www.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2012-03-31-ny-v-mtl/highlights

    Montreal was upset by the PK call against Ferrari, but he takes down McCarty after poking the ball away:

    http://www.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2012-03-31-ny-v-mtl/highlights?videoID=180791
     
  23. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator Staff Member

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    Agreed but would also say that's an incredibly tough call at speed. Those are occasionally just going to get missed and it's good that the benefit went to the attacker AND it didn't affect the result.

    In the interest of my own intellectual consistency, I'd argue that he takes him out as he plays the ball away. I think there's contact with the first leg as he touches the ball and then the second leg clatters through. It was a "scissors," like the tackle we are talking about in another thread, but I think this one was a foul without that motion. It's not like he cleanly played the ball away with the first leg.
     
  24. soccerking1990

    soccerking1990 Member

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  25. GlennAA11

    GlennAA11 Member

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    Yes, for all of Shep Messing's faults, he is one of the few who seems to really understand the rules.
     
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