1. Save 40-80% on great soccer jerseys. Shop today at BigSoccer Shop!

all time dutch XI

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by tony-soprano37, Jan 12, 2013.

Moderators: comme
  1. tony-soprano37

    tony-soprano37 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2008
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Country:
    England
    lets see if there are countries with better al time teams then this.

    formation is 3-4-3 but concept of total football so i have chosen for players who can play on several positions and will constantly shift throughout the game.

    goalkeeper : jan van beveren (not to commonly known outside of holland cause he did not play in the national team due to him and cruyff not getting along. but overhere widely regarded as our best goalie ever maybe even a level or 2 above van der sar).
    rightback : wim suurbier (during the 70ies one of the best in the world on that position)
    leftback : ruud krol (great player could play also sweeper, rightback and numerous other positions)
    central defender : rinus israel (the best we ever had could give just as koeman perfect passes, had the same touch of the ball but was way faster and a way tougher and better defender)
    leftmidfield : willem van hanegem (one of the most complete players ever.
    right midfield : johan neeskens (unbelievable stamina also a very complete player)
    defensive midfield : frank rijkaard.
    attacking midfield/playmaker : johan cruyff (no explanation needed)
    leftwinger : rob rensenbrink (played 3 europeancup finals with anderlecht 9winning 2, also beat the great liverpool of the late 70ies. as for pure technique he was at least of the level of cruyff)
    rightwinger : ruud gullit (not his natural position but prime gullit was very fast and powerfull and could play various positions)
    striker : marco van basten (not the best goalscorer of all time but probably the most complete goalscorer the world has ever seen)

    maybe 1 or 2 countries can present a better all time team then this but at least no other european country can.
     


  2. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2004
    Not sure you know this but it helps to draw formation better: http://this11.com/boards/editor
    I think you missed out Cruiff as CAM?
    I ;) Let Puck starts commenting first in this
     
  3. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2008
    This would be mine:

    Van der Sar
    Suurbier
    Koeman
    Krol
    Davids
    Rikjaard
    Neeskens
    Cruyff
    Gullit
    Bergkamp
    Van Basten

    Besides Brazil and Argentina, I believe Italy and France could present an all-time greater side.
     
  4. tony-soprano37

    tony-soprano37 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2008
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Country:
    England
    thanks for this.
     


  5. tony-soprano37

    tony-soprano37 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2008
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Country:
    England
    i can live with the choice of van der sar allthough van beveren was a ay better goalie. but not for choosing koeman. rinus israel was way way better in that position.
    but the biggest mistake is that you choose davids over van hanegem. van hanegem was a way better player then davids.
     
  6. tony-soprano37

    tony-soprano37 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2008
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Country:
    England
    p.s. pipiolo i am curious with you're all time italian or france team that you would think can match an all time dutch team
     
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    The pinnacle of his career besides winning 2 CWC was the Supercup game against Bayern Munich in 1976 where he had 2 goals and 2 assists.

    He also had a goal and assist in the Supercup game against Liverpool indeed and had 2 goals against Austria Wien in the 1978 final; 2 goals + 2 assists against West Ham in 1976 as well.


    !


    It is possible to make various formations but I think that Krol, Van Hanegem, Rijkaard, Cruijff, Gullit and Van Basten belong in any team.


     
  8. tony-soprano37

    tony-soprano37 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2008
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Country:
    England
    add neeskens to those you mentioned as well imo. but one time i have seen a list that had van der kuilen at the nr. 10 spot and van basten as striker and no cruyff it also included faas wilkes that was actually not a bad list. van der kuilen gets a bit underrated due to his not playing the national team but he was a goalscoring machine on his own totally 2 footed.
    tell you something else rensenbrink was my favorite player when i was a boy. most kids wanted to be cruyff but i wanted to be rensenbrink.
     
  9. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2008
    Van Hanegem over Davids is fine, but Israel is an unknown player and should not selected ahead of an international legend such as Koeman.

    I will make those in their own thread, Italy is an embarrassment of riches at defenders and goalie, France in midfield.
     
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    A lot of the 1930s to 1960s Argentinian players would be unknown too if it was not for their big numbers in terms of fans and supporters who cherish their history.
     
  11. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2008
    Most of them are unknown, except for Moreno and Pedernera due to the historic La Maquina, arguably the greatest club dynasty of all time, and Orsi and Monti for winning the WC with Italy. You are way off in including the late 50s and 60s, as DiStefano, Rial, Sivori, Maschio, Grillo, Angelillo, Mas, Ratin, etc. all became big names for acclaimed successes.
     
  12. tony-soprano37

    tony-soprano37 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2008
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Country:
    England
    maybe to you but israel isn't so unknown. he won the european cup with feyenoord in 1970 and the wc for clubteams. as for him being better then koeman ?? ask any dutchman over 40 and they will agree on this.
     
  13. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2004
    To be honest I did not have chane to see much of Israel, but I could understand why they would choose him over Koeman. Koeman was not a so-impressive DF in skills per se (a la Scirea or Beckenbauer) but he got the advantage playing in a "Dream team" Barca by Cruijff, on top of his own "right" trademark in dead ball and long shots (so rare for a DF)

    For me ... it's a 50-50 call
     
  14. tony-soprano37

    tony-soprano37 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2008
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Country:
    England
    lets be real his defensive skills weren't all that good and also koeman was really slow. his good points where his great passing and free kicks and his reading of the game.
    israel was as good as koeman with the passing. on the same level with the reading of the game but way faster and also a had way better defensive skills. he was a rock hard player his nickname was :"iron rinus". he missed out on the 1974 WC due to injures so dutch coach michels played with haan in defense (wich wasn't all that bad but not the same as with israel)
     
  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Again totally of the mark James. Koeman was the most expensive signing of Cruijff and was also seen as his best signing (until Romario came). He played in a difficult role too. He was slow but his defensive weakness is often overstated. Partially because of the influential Baresi lobby at that time, orchestrated by Berlusconi who wanted to see him winning the Ballon d'Or (which drove Van Basten to madness).
    He also held the passes completed record at the European championships in a single match until Xavi overtook him. That is a sign as well.

    Most liberos were not great defenders one on one, including Beckenbauer. Scirea was an notable exception though who had great defensive attributes.

    Koeman is however not a sure lock in the team. Jaap Stam maybe is.
     
  16. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2004
    Yes you're right, I forgot of his passing range skillset ... I just listed quickly his notably fame people known for as among TOP DF's (like FK, PK and long pass) In general passing, Scirea Beckenbauer Passarella were slightly better than him though.

    About Beckenbauer, you might be surprised if you did not know this

    1- Against Pele: (Pele interview with GQ mag.)

    Let's talk superlatives for a minute. I'd guess that Bobby Moore and Franz Beckenbauer were the best defenders you ever faced?
    When you play against dirty players or very tough players, it's easy to escape because you know what they're going to do. But when the player is tough but intelligent it's much more difficult. Bobby Moore was unbelievable because he had great experience; he could read what you were going to do, and he was very tough, too. Whenever you felt any body contact with him, you knew that he was very strong. Beckenbauer was also strong and whenever West Germany played Brazil he swapped from midfield to follow me [raises eyes to heaven]. He was a very intelligent player and very fair too. I used to say to him, "Why don't you go and help your team in midfield and leave me alone?" And he would always smile and say, "No, no, today I am a defender." They were the two best defenders I played against, without a doubt.

    2- Against Cruijff:
    Cruijff was known to become for his reaction toward Repp's comment's after his missed goal in final (supposed to be 2-2) : Repp was no longer in Cruijff's list of friends after Repp's famous (sarcastic) joke: "I was supposed Cruijff would have dribbled passed Beckenbauer and shoot, but he did not take a duel with Kaiser one on one" (or something like that)

    Beckenbauer was surely among the "most complete player" not just DF or DM or libero per se ..
     
  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Pelé can say a lot of things. Look at the World Cup stats provided such as tackles won, interceptions and aerial duels won.
    Liberos are often not great one on one. That is no shame. Scirea and later on Baresi (the Berlusconi darling) in particular were two notable exceptions.

    And Cruijff did actually the right thing in that situation. Rep had a free chance to shoot but failed. Maier was in shape on that day.
     
  18. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2008
    LOL, you're something else P*ck. So not only is Maldini a product of the Berlusconi manipulation, but so is Baresi. I guess AC Milan destroying your beloved Cruyff's Barca must still well up the tears in you :cry:
     
  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Berlusconi made his preference public in both 1988 and 1989. It was no secret. The Italian press backed him (of course). His TV station organized another award in January 1990 where both Baresi and Maradona were ranked ahead of him; the precise method never became public.
    I can tell you that Van Basten was not happy with this stabbing by his boss and the Italian press (who even spread rumors about whether he was straight or homosexual).

    Very informative reply again by the way.
     
  20. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2008
    Why would Berlusconi want Maradona ahead of his own player, especially when Maradona was the one player who could stop AC Milan from winning the scudetto?

    I also don't think that a defensive player can really take away much from an attacking player, the Balon D'Ors are all given to playmakers/strikers/wingers. Baresi and Maldini getting awards from Berlusconi's TV channel wasn't going to impact Van Basten or Gullit, you may complain about Rikjaard I guess.
     
  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    You give the answer in the next section.

    Don't want to pretend that lobbying (or the lack thereof) had always a big influence though. For example, this was/is among the more prestigious overall sportsman of the year awards.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L'Équipe_Champion_of_Champions

    In 1989 Van Basten was the only football player listed in the published top 10, on place five to be precise (a few points short of second/third place).

    Anyway, it is no speculation from my part that Berlusconi or other Milan officials had their preferences. It was public.
     
  22. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2004
    This is an "official interview with GQ" and Pele could not tell lie - Beckenbauer left his position to following him all games (65 to 68)

    You (SERIOUSLY ??? ) based on WC stats (average dozen of games) to SUM UP their career (like Libero was not good in 1 on 1) ? Now I would really question your point of view about football!

    I was just sarcastically to give that example to see HOW PEOPLE (especially good player like Repp) RESPECTED to Beckenbauer's ability (like .. even Cruijff would not take a duel with him)


    ============================

    Castrol data are "good" in the sense it provided us a "general perception" about those palyers in BIG GAMES but NO BIBLE - GOSHHHH

    I am a Brazil fan and a fan of Ronaldo. Should I use Castrol WC data and JUMP UP to the roof saying "RONALDO scored the MOST points in Castrol as the BEST WC performer ever? NO!

    Last and not least: Those STATS were only produced by Castrol (whoelse did ever checking on them? NONE) , and ONLY started at WC66 as lacking a few big data chunks ...
     
  23. tony-soprano37

    tony-soprano37 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2008
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Country:
    England
    matthias sammer in 1996
    fabian cannavaro in 2006
    lev yashin in 1963
    lothar matthaus in 1990
    franz beckenbauer in 1972 and 1976
    josef masopust in 1962

    so not always to strikers or playmakers or wingers who get the ballon d'or
     
  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Pelé has said a lot of things. On one occasion he sees himself as the equivalent of Michelangelo, Mozart and Picasso; on a different day he says things like that Cruyff "is the most influential person of the past 50 years [in football]."

    Fair enough.
     
  25. Bruford

    Bruford Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2012
    Do you know where can I find the top 10 of each year? I also think this award is really respectable(especially after they gave it to Senna in 90, when he won the championship over french great Alain Prost).
     
Moderators: comme

Share This Page