Am I Wrong?

Discussion in 'CONCACAF Champions League' started by The Green Mushroom, Mar 29, 2012.

  1. The Green Mushroom

    The Green Mushroom Member

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    I'm going to be honest...I just don't care about the CCL. It just seems to me that:

    • It is a pale imitation of the UEFA Champions League
    • It is a bunch of Mexican teams, a few MLS teams and a bunch of teams from small countries. I have nothing against any of those teams or nations, but aside from MLS and Mexican teams I don't recognize any of the names and neither know nor care if they are good teams or not. Going back to my first point, I know who Man U or Barca or AC Milan are and I know that if an outside gets moving through the UCL it is either something special or a new up and coming power.
    • Attendance and media coverage also seems to indicate that many, if not most, fans also do not care all that much.
    • It divides the league into two classes. I know Canada is a different nation, but what happens when Montreal wins the Cup, Toronto are runners-up and Vancouver wins the Canadian Championship? What's the point of having one of the "prizes" for winning the league be forbidden to a number of its teams? In other words, why does the league let a sixth of its teams be second class citizens?
    Am I missing something? Does playing in the CCL help MLS? Does it make them money? Does it bring the league prestige? Does it bring in more fans?

    Honestly, if I wanted to grow MLS I would limit non-league games to friendles against big name clubs that will bring in paying customers. Otherwise I would limit my time and efforts to making the league and its season and playoffs more meaningful and a better product to attract more fans and media interest.

    Sorry if this should have been in MLS General


  2. SweetOwnGoal

    SweetOwnGoal Member

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    Let me guess -- Barca fan?

    Of course it's a "pale imitation" to the UEFA Champions League. Why in hell shouldn't CONCACAF have a tournament to find a champion though? The game is played outside Europe, you know.

    Honestly, and I don't mean to pick on you, if you can't understand the importance of playing in a continental championship then I don't know what to tell you...
    1 person likes this.
  3. The Green Mushroom

    The Green Mushroom Member

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    I have no preference for or against any team in Europe really. I also, for what it is worth, don't find single table championships exciting in the least. Europe has its good ideas, some of which are worth copying, and its bad ideas. The UEFA championships are not a bad idea in that they certainly work for Europe, but I am not sure that a continental championship on that model works best for everyone. It seems to me that it was expanded to the size that it is as a money making idea (and it does seem to work for that) and to copy what American sports have with playoffs (and again it works). I also think Europe is very different than most continents due to its size, wealth, and numbers of nations and very different to the US. In many ways the US is more like Europe than a country in Europe.

    I understand the idea of a conference championship in and of itself, I just feel that CONCACAF's is not very interesting (to me, everyone else is free to enjoy it) and I can't see why the league and its teams should worry about it. If you ask the average fan what they want to win, I am sure that the MLS Cup would rank significantly higher than any continental play.
  4. SweetOwnGoal

    SweetOwnGoal Member

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    Casual fans in the US and Canada often struggle with the idea of a parallel competition -- it's about the league and playoffs. The CCL has struggled to get attention in part b/c Joe and Jane fan that go to 3-4 games a year simply don't get it.

    However, the 10% of hardcore, supporter's group fans in MLS have a greater importance to the league than their numbers might suggest. The hardcore spend more money on the league, go to more games and are often marketed as part of the experience (i.e. "Come watch Timbers Army get crazy!!11! -- oh, and the Timbers are playing Chivas") . The hardcore loves the CCL and demands that MLS take it seriously. It's important that the league recognizes it.

    I've been fortunate to see 11 CCL games in person. Some have been horrible -- small teams bunkering. However, the best CCL games I've seen are incredible. The quality of play is better and they have playoff intensity (without the playoff goonery that bogs down MLS playoffs).

    I was at Toronto FC v Santos last night. It was an amazing game with 18,000 crazed fans in attendance. There will be very few nights like it at BMO Field this year. I'm fairly certain you'd understand why the CCL matters if you had been there too...


  5. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

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    Most people do not, International club competition has never been big in Concacaf.

    I like to think of it as a pale imitation of the AFC Champions League

    http://www.the-afc.com/en/tournaments/clubs/afc-champions-league

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFC_Champions_League




    Well how are you going to learn the teams if you do not care about the tournament, I love that I get to learn more about CFU and Central American soccer, I actually love reading the threads where we track those leagues to see who will make the next CCL. But I know I am in the minority.




    True




    Vancouver goes to the CCL the other do not.

    Hey I have been saying it for years, lets invade and anex Canada.

    Well this part probably does belong to the MLS General Forum.

    To me it should keep MLS fans grounded (it does not), you see all the MLS/NYRB are the gratest team.league in the world threads and then our teams go and lose to Puerto Rico or Tauro FC, etc.


    Close the league off, well it is a way to go, the thing about soccer is that it is a world sport so competing against the world in meaningful games is a great part of it, but not all Americans like it.

    Perhaps, and IMO yes you are wrong.
  6. nfitz

    nfitz Member

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    Personally I find any of the Champions League games, or even the Voyageurs Cup games far more thrilling and exciting than any MLS game. Perhaps because each game means so much compared to the one out of 34 MLS games. Perhaps partly because Toronto has never succeeded in MLS as they seem to for Concacaf/Voyageurs games.

    Yeah ... because that worked out well for you last time. Time to burn the White House down again? A bicentennial special?
  7. The Green Mushroom

    The Green Mushroom Member

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    I, for one, welcome our new Canadian overlords. Do we need to have the NFL switch to three downs instead of four?
  8. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

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    It does need remodeling :p
  9. It's called FOOTBALL

    It's called FOOTBALL Member+

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    I'm sure the organizers of the UEFA CL did not think of usa sports when expanding the European Cup. KO competition had existed before playoffs in this country. They didn't copy usa sports or even consider them.
  10. themodelcitizen

    themodelcitizen Member

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    Well, when Salt Lake were in the CCL final, Colorado were the reigning MLS champions. In fact, by the time the MLS winner progresses through the following CL, another MLS season will have been played -- not the case with the Canadian Championship (it functions as a more direct qualifying stage for the CCL).
  11. The Green Mushroom

    The Green Mushroom Member

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    The fact that the MLS season is not aligned with the CCL season seems totally irrelevant to me. The MLS and the Canadian Championship both qualify teams for the CCL albeit at different times. Canada has made a choice, in terms of its soccer, not to stage its own league but to place teams in U.S. competition--like several other nations (New Zealand and Lichtenstein as well a Welsh team or two spring to mind) If there was any logic to the CCL beyond simply copying what the UCL does, Canada and the United States would have one set of berths that applied to all teams equally regardless of what side of the 49th Parallel they are on. It is one league covering two nations.

    I will stand corrected if the Canadians decided to stage the CSC for reasons beyond CCL qualification and freely chose to give qualify places to that competition instead of the MLS.
  12. Pønch

    Pønch Saprissista

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    It's ok, outside of the US nobody knows a thing about MLS teams, other than year after year they fail to impress in the CCL :p
  13. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

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    I do believe Al-Jazira shows MLS games internationally.

    But yes outside Argentina and Brazil most Europeans/Asians/Africans do not know or care about teams in the Americas.
  14. vargasv71

    vargasv71 Member

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    Imagine how the mexicans feel playing against teams with 1/5th the payroll of their better teams (Monterrey's payroll is around 15mil US). No wonder they're always saying they need to join conmebol. But payroll increases for MLS teams alone isnt going to solve the issue (though it must happen). I watched some CCL games, but I had the opposite reaction from disappointment: I wanted more. My thinking has been that the group stage should be expanded to 20 teams(w/invites to Colombian teams). Another thought was: we really need to get into Copa Lib, and hope its a ratings bonanza for US spanish networks (6 million Amer. in the US are watching Chivas v America right now) and maybe European tv networks. Ultimately, MLS, Costa Rica and Canada needs to get better to improve CCL. Those countries have higher standards of living, and can afford to experiment with payrolls into the millions of dollars (as FMF does). If Concacaf imposed a strict "infrastructure" rule in regards to stadiums, it pretty much would pair down the competition to those 4 countries. However, for MLS to improve in CCL it must do better, plain and simple. It would help to play the Mexicans and Central Amer more then just once during the year. Resurrect Pan Pacific & Superliga, but combined into one summer tournament- the New Cup (for new league's cup). Both competitions pretty much sucked hairy balls, and its good they are no longer around. However, maybe concacaf can designate this new competition as the 2nd tier regional tournament (like Europa league or Copa Sudamericana), but not over half a year of play- more like over a month or two in between league play. 2 US MLS teams, 2 FMF teams, 1 Canadian, 1 Costa Rican, and 2 J-League, 2 China league, 1 A-League, and 1 S. Korean team. Have 3 groups of 4, and fly multiple teams on the same plane to save on travel cost in home and away games, not in Hawaii, but actually in home stadiums. Who'd show for RSL vs Shanghai? Maybe no one, but I say give it a try. Hell, maybe 20 mil folks would be watching in China & Japan. Maybe it would actually draw viewers in Europe. Just because Brazil & Argentina leagues are better doesnt mean Europeans put up with all the diving in those leagues.
  15. It's called FOOTBALL

    It's called FOOTBALL Member+

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    20 mil watching in Asia? Hahaha. We have another Goforthekill here.

    Dude, none of your ideas are gonna happen. There's too much travel for the Lib Cup. And the league is only focused on friendlies vs Euros. That's what brings the money in. The World Football Challenge will continue, that's where you'll get your usa+Mex friendly tournament desires. Except they'll be battling Euros instead of each other. And that's fine, that's what the fans want. Sun Life Stadium was packed to see Guad thump Barca. It's all about the $$$$$.

    So no, the Pan Cup or SuperLeague are both goners. When it comes to friendlies, it's all about the WFC. Expect it to expand now that dates are freed due to the reduced CCL. In fact, I predicted the CCL would reduce, and now it has. It may reduce even more, but the WFC is here to stay, with more Euro vs Euro action.
  16. vargasv71

    vargasv71 Member

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    for all my nutty ideas, none are nuttier as you taking WFC seriously. Those arent serious games, and it helps not one iota towards preparing mls teams for play w/fmf teams in CCL. I predict CCL may invite some teams from elsehwere, but I do think a 2nd category type of event will occur similar to Europa league or Copa Sud, even if no one is watching. It will most likely be initiated by Caribbean or Central Amer officials wanting to increase their power. US/Mex should obviously take it over and try to do something intriguing with it
  17. It's called FOOTBALL

    It's called FOOTBALL Member+

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    I'm not taking WFC seriously. At all. You miscomprehended.

    I predict CCL won't invite teams from elsewhere. Why would they? This confederation has enough teams to fill out the 24.

    You predict a 2nd cat. event will happen even if no one is watching. That's why it won't happen, because no one will watch. With no one watching, where are they gonna get the money to pull it off?

    If the CCL itself has already been scaled back, then why would a 2nd tier tourney be created? CCL is barely surviving. There is no money for a 2nd tier event.

    Name a date by when you feel your predictions will come true, then we'll revisit this thread to see who was right.
  18. harrylee773

    harrylee773 Member

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    That makes no sense at all. The logic is that each regional federation is in charge of their allotted berths. The CSA is canada's regional federation, the USSF is ours. These existed before MLS and would likely continue to exist in the (hopefully) unlikely event that MLS ceases to exist. The CCL is a tournament that is designed to crown a regional champion, so it makes sense that the berths are given out by region, rather than league. The canadians could just as easily decide to give the CCL berth to the team that finishes the MLS season with the most points, they chose instead to go the tournament route, which I think is a much better solution.
  19. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

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    Yes; and at least they are not in the position of the Wellington New Zealand team, they can not qualify for the AFC Champions (even when they play in the A-league) and are not allowed to participate in the OFC Champions league (I hear the other NZ clubs block their entry), they really get screwed.
  20. vargasv71

    vargasv71 Member

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    a combination of 3 things will come together. The Brazilian league & soccer confedn will continue to place well-educated technocratic pragmatist into various teams and regional committee slotted for pulling off a well managed World cup. These guys will start to exert more power once it does go off, and wrest control from the old corrupt guard. The 2nd thing to occur will involve Garber and MLS HQ starting to lean towards the argument that visiting European teams primarily have a negative affect on MLS when they play against MLS (since MLS teams dont take them seriously and get blown out of the water, and only reinforces eurosnob views). The 3rd thing to occur will be the much-rumored unified Copa America of 2016. Yes, there were rumors that it would be 2015, and though thats been given to Chile there are still rumors of a centennial unified one in 2016. This will happen, and it will be a bonanza, so much so that both confeds will look to interact much more in a way thats feasible (2 mls teams in copa lib is a small thing). This will lead to concacaf to extend invites to non-concacaf for its tournaments-Gold, CCL, and 2nd level tier club tourny. I think the last of those could occur over a short period in the summer involving no more then 12-14 teams, with maybe up to 6 of those being invites (euro, s. amer, j-league/china) w/all games played on us/mex/or can soil
  21. It's called FOOTBALL

    It's called FOOTBALL Member+

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    They take em seriously, they don't wanna get embarrassed. But they still get blown outta the water because they are vastly inferior.

    The WFC makes Garber $$$$. Why would he not want all that $$$$? Him and his cohorts. The WFC is here to stay, and will be the most entertaining football in the usa, except for when Mexican teams play here.

    Ok, so you think your predictions will happen in 2016. I'll bet you sig and avi that they won't. Be here in 2016 to pay up.
  22. vargasv71

    vargasv71 Member

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    The reason they scaled back dealt w/infrastructure (lack of proper stadiums), not skill level. 2nd division teams like Islanders or some T&T teams have shown the ability to make deep runs. This reboot of CCL is the very reason why MLS is not in Copa Lib. MLS wanted to give this regional competition time to develop and take hold, and not be seen as usurping it by vaulting over it and making a grab for a conmebol tournament. MLS hears this clamor for copa lib all the time (from fans, pundits, reporters, potential investors), and its not like MLS didnt have connections whereby it could negotiate 2 invites (via dealings w/Traffic). MLS definately has a number of tools it can use to elicit those invites, and eventually it will happen. I suspect MLS winning CCL is that marker
  23. It's called FOOTBALL

    It's called FOOTBALL Member+

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    You're wrong, the reason CCL was scaled back is because teams, mainly Mexican, requested it to be scaled back. Because they prefer less traveling. And also because the tourney will lose less money with less games. The stadium issue is already resolved by disallowing teams who don't have a proper stadium. They started disallowing them in the 2nd CCL. So, lack of stadium is not the issue.

    Now do you have a link that shows that this reboot is why your league isn't in Lib Cup? Because I don't think that is the case. From what I've seen, South America just hasn't invited them. I highly doubt your league cares about overshadowing CCL or not. Mexico doesn't give a shit about overshadowing CCL, why would the usa?

    Yeah, it's possible they can negotiate an invite if they tried, but there's no way CCL is the reason they don't. If so, prove it with a link. I'm sure the reason is because of the ridiculous travel that would be involved. It would be anti-pragmatic if this league played in South America.
  24. Fort York Redcoat

    Fort York Redcoat Member

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    I don't see why this region isn't good enough for people. It's been decided by proximity for the most part and those who excel in it already should be proud and those that will improve over the years through interplay will be prouder yet.

    To ignore the region and concentrate on the league alone is insular. To give attention to another region while questioning your own you ignore is ironic.
  25. vargasv71

    vargasv71 Member

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    at the very least, there is nothing wrong with inviting clubs from a country that has a natural association with a major league of another football region. MLS has tons of Colombian players, and I know a Gold cup in the past had colombia and brazil as an invites at the national level. Copa Lib invites Mexicans not just because of revenue but also because they think the mexicans are fiesty little clubs. There are ways to improve CCL, but c'mon this region doesnt have a Brazil, an Argentina, or a Germany, so how are we going to draw people?Nothing wrong with mixing it up with other regions. After all, besides US & Mex only Costa Rica can be considered to have adequate stadiums for their teams (and I for one, believe that if a team does not have an adequate home stadium then the alternative stadium should have to be within 10 miles of the team's home base....ccl should exclude teams from small countries with small stadium where they end up playing ccl games at the one national stadium miles away)

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