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Another Jim Allen gem

Discussion in 'Referee' started by IllinoisRef, Dec 15, 2012.

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  1. IllinoisRef

    IllinoisRef Member

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    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
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    Brazil
    The question was about the corner kick "trick" where the player sets the ball down and kicks slowly as he/she walks away and another player comes and dribbles away. Well that's how I ready the question.
    Jim Allen then goes on a rant about trickery as trying to pass the ball back to the keeper and never once addresses the original question.
    No wonder the dude lost the official backing from USSF

    http://www.askasoccerreferee.com/?p=3750
     


  2. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

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    Actually, the long-winded question was whether "trickery" in the LOTG was limited to a specific context. ("My position is that the notion of “trickery” has a very specific meaning and application within the LOTG: and that is, specifically a player trying to trick the referee by circumventing the spirit of the laws. ") The answer was yes ("Trickery, at least under the Laws of the Game, is reserved for only one offense: Engaging in trickery to circumvent the goalkeeper’s limitation on handling the ball played from a teammate’s foot (the defender who initiates the “trickery” is cautioned, the decision does not require that the goalkeeper actually handles the ball, and the misconduct can occur during dynamic play or at a restart). This also applies at throw-ins: At a throw-in, referees should take care not to consider as trickery any sequence of play that offers a fair chance for opponents to challenge for the ball before it is handled by the goalkeeper from a throw-in. Trickery cannot occur at a corner kick under any but the most unusual circumstances."), and then goes on to discuss that one scenario.

    No reason to bash Jim on this answer.
     
  3. aek chicago

    aek chicago Member

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    Sep 17, 2004
    This was covered by Herb Silva at the seminar in waukegan. Nothing therem as socal said, trickery is basically limited to situation where the player is attemtping to circumvent the pass back prohibition.
     
  4. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

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    May 27, 2004
    And the questioner wasn't looking to find the holy grail answer to the corner kick "trick". He was making sure there was only one spot in the Laws where trickery was mentioned.
     


  5. campbed

    campbed Member

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    Location:
    New Hampshire, USA
    Me thinks the rant in question, is you.

    Nothing wrong with JA giving the IFAB history of where the trickery law came from, and why. I found it interesting.

    The questioner DID ask for a theology lesson.... Question asked and answered your honor.
     
  6. R.U. Kiddingme

    R.U. Kiddingme Member

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    Just curious, out of the collectively thousands of games we have all been a part of, has anyone actually seen this?
    Don't get me wrong, just because something is extremely rare doesn't mean that the discussion isn't
    helpful to a greater understanding of the LOTG.
     
  7. campbed

    campbed Member

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    Do you mean the "Trick Corner Kick", or "Trickery" to around passback to Goalie? I've been involved middle+line for the corner kick maybe 6 times (once in a State Cup final), and the passback once.
     
  8. R.U. Kiddingme

    R.U. Kiddingme Member

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    Wow, OK, I guess it does happen more then I thought as I have never witnessed either.
    Maybe we're just more honest here in the midwest.:)
    Ha, probably the more accurate reason is that you've worked more higher level games then I.
     
    dadman repped this.
  9. NBTHOMCCC

    NBTHOMCCC Member

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    Aug 16, 2009
    Never seen Trickery, but have seen the trick corner twice. Once as a coach at high school level, Referee called the double touch on opponents. Once from the opposing team while spectating my sons U5 game....
     
  10. Yale

    Yale Member

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    Nov 26, 2012
    :eek: Any coach who has his players do a trick corner at U5 should be stripped of his coach badge and have it burned in front of him, before being drummed out of the league. Maybe even tarred and feathered, then run out of town on a rail.

    IMO, any attempt to deceive the opponents about the current state of play should be cautionable as UB. I know that's currently not the case, I'm just saying it should be.
     
  11. QuietCoach

    QuietCoach Member

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    For whatever it's worth, I also found the answer a little disappointing. The question was mostly about whether or not "fake" corner kicks are legal, and it included a secondhand report that one referee had ruled such a kick illegal, calling it trickery.

    In my opinion, the ideal answer to this question would be one paragraph, consisting of a few sentences about the legality of fake corner kicks followed by one sentence indicating that the word "trickery" under the laws is reserved for something else (attempting to circumvent the passback rule). Instead, we get 6 paragraphs about trickery, followed by a 6 paragraph quote, with no comment about whether fake corner kicks are disallowed for some other reason -- just that they don't fall under the definition of trickery.

    Since I found the 12 paragraphs interesting, I'm not really complaining, but I would have to agree that he did not answer the question.

    I ran into a situation with a fake corner kick and wasn't sure what to do. It was my second whistle ever on a full-sided 11v11 game (U14 Rec), and I stopped play for what I saw as a second touch violation when the taker of a corner kick just started dribbling toward the goal. One of the boys (perhaps a ref himself) quietly and politely explained to me that the ball was put in play by the player who positioned it. I quickly decided he was right -- that I should not have blown the whistle. The "book answer" restart would be a dropped ball for the inadvertent whistle, but a retake of the corner kick seemed more fair.

    - QC
     
    IllinoisRef repped this.
  12. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

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    Again and again we go over this, and it comes down to one simple fact. Involvement by anyone but players. If a coach involves himself into this play, then I'm not letting it go, but if the ball is put in play properly, then it is up to the defense to be alert.
     
    dadman repped this.
  13. R.U. Kiddingme

    R.U. Kiddingme Member

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    This makes me think about certain throw in situations.
    A player gets ready to take a quick TI but another player yells to take it, and as the other player runs over the ball is tossed underhand while the player running over is still on the field.
    We don't regard this as a bad TI, but we could. We assume that the original thrower was not making a real TI.
    Could we not use this attitude as well on this situation? Could we say that we assumed the original CK'er was just positioning the ball so we didn't regard it as a kick, just as we don't regard the underhand toss as a TI?
    Or perhaps we could be proactive if we suspect anything, after the first touch/kick, we could blow the whistle to reset the situation.
    I agree BTW that if the coach participates that he will be getting an earful.
    u-5?!! Time is better spent teaching skills don't you think?
     
  14. Scrabbleship

    Scrabbleship Member

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    I've only seen it myself once. I was the AR right in front of the corner they were using. I was looking at the players in the box and looked down to see the ball outside the circle and told the player to put it into the arc. He placed it on the arc and rolled it forward with his foot.

    It didn't even occur to me that they were attempting a trick corner as I had never seen it before, and I didn't notice the team mate walking over nearby. He told me what he was doing, but when attempting it for the third time, a defender had come over once he tapped it, so I stepped in and told the defender the corner hadn't been taken yet, as I felt like a douche for screwing it up the first couple times.

    We had a good chuckle as he setup for a proper corner.
     
  15. sjquakes08

    sjquakes08 Member+

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    So what is the justification in the laws for this?

    I remember seeing this said before on this forum, that the coach shouldn't get involved. So I'm reffing a game and I hear the coach do the "No, Sally, *you* take it" trick, and then I notice the little touch, followed by Sally dribbling the ball towards the goal. I stopped play, told the coach he couldn't do that, and gave a re-kick (which wasn't technically proper, but I'll eat that.)

    A national referee was watching the game and afterward chewed me out, telling me if the coach doesn't say anything that brings the game into disrepute, OFFINABUS, or dissent, he can say what he wants. And from my reading of the LOTG, I can't find anything that would make this not true.
     
  16. IllinoisRef

    IllinoisRef Member

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    That's exactly what was the question was but Jim Allen chose not to answer and went on about trickery on a pass back.
     
  17. grasskamper

    grasskamper Member

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    Not "exactly". You need to go back and read the question posed to JA. The question is regarding trickery. Trickery only applies, as JA and others above have accurately stated, to attempts by a field player to circumvent his/her goalkeeper's handling limitations under the laws of the game. Coach active involvement in a trick corner kick does not fall under the auspices of "trickery".
     
  18. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

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    JA has addressed this distinction before. Compare http://www.askasoccerreferee.com/?p=2099 with http://www.askasoccerreferee.com/?p=1746.

    As far as how this links to the LOTG, go back to what the coach is permitted to do from the technical area -- deliberately mislead the other team is not one of the options. The coach may convey tactical instructions and must act in a responsible manner.

    (I won't even ask why a national referee is talking about dissent and OFFINABUS with respect to a coach . . . .)
     
  19. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

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    And SJ Quakes, it is covered in Law 5, which is where the broad powers to stop for misconduct by club officials is actually discussed. Restart (if play has restarted after ck) is dropped ball, which i would guess would not be the selected answer on 99 out of a hundred refs on a recert!
     
  20. IllinoisRef

    IllinoisRef Member

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    He makes clear that he wants to now if the fake corner is allowed. He does mention that he understands what trickery means within the laws of the game.
     
  21. grasskamper

    grasskamper Member

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    JA succintly defines "trickery", the basis in the laws, its background and narrow application. Does not mention trick corner once. Draw own conclusion.
     
  22. aek chicago

    aek chicago Member

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    What the hell is a "fake" corner kick? If the ball is properly placed within the corner arc, and then touched and moves, how is this "fake"? The corner has been properly taken.
     
  23. aek chicago

    aek chicago Member

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    Not according to Herb Silva.

    Play on!
     
  24. aek chicago

    aek chicago Member

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    Not really.

    Ironically, this very scenario occurred to a referee at the US Club Nationals this summer in Waukegan, Illinois. I believe it was an U14 girls match, but I may be mistaken. Nonetheless, it became a hot topic at the clinic afterwards which featured Herb Silva as guest speaker.

    For whatever reason, there was at least one referee in attendance hell bent on finding trickery and/or misconduct in this scenario, even after Silva emphatically told everyone there was nothing wrong with this 'trick corner".
     
  25. IllinoisRef

    IllinoisRef Member

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    For the record I believe there is nothing wrong with the "fake" corner kick.
    My original post wast only to point Jim Allen's inability to answer what has been asked in a direct manner.
     
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