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Argentina y Bolivia Nov 11 [R]

Discussion in 'Argentina: Selecciones Nacionales' started by SupaMario, Nov 4, 2011.

  1. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

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    Don't you think Argentina would be better with Burrito Martinez and Aguero as the starting forwards?
     


  2. Pekerman

    Pekerman Member

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    the coach who can make it work for Messi is definetly Bielsa. He will chose midfielders who can make runs, force forwards to track back and constantly move, actually use laterals...ect...it will be total football. People forget that Bielsa had all of this forged before Pekerman came along and before Pep at Barca. The team is really static at time.

    I am still confused by the unwarranted criticism of Higuain :confused: Anyone has the highlights of the game ? I don't want to rewatch the whole thing
     
  3. Albiceleste2010

    Albiceleste2010 Member

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    Pipiolo I like these players very much. I picked Martinez for my current 23 man squad.

    However chopping and changing players like this is like changing the deckchairs on the Titanic as it sinks. What is the point ? Higuain did very well all things considered yesterday and in setting up play when he could.

    I know who I would pick, who I see as players with promise and ability and who is in form and how I would set them up and ask them to play.

    I fear Sabella is lost. He either does not know his own mind or is either fearful of moving away from players he knows or fearful of the reaction of the press should he pick some youngsters and they lose or draw.

    So far as I can see he has no on field plan. The domestic squad is full of old timers instead of offering oppurtunities to the best young kids to bring them on.

    He picks players out of form and plays them out of position like Alvarez. No Gaitan. That left side until Alvarez left was imbalanced badly hindering Clemente as well into tracking forward.

    How is it we can see this and he cannot ? My fear is becomes reactionary and someone like Pastore is cut again.

    You know he could play a sensible well balanced side like this:

    -----------------------Romero---------------------------
    ---Zabaleta-----Fernandez------Burdisso-------Clemente--
    --------------------Mascherano-------------------------
    -------------Gago--------------Pastore----------------
    ----------------------Messi------------------------------
    -----------Martinez------------------Higuain------------

    for instance.

    I have e-mailed the AFA and put down my views to Sabella. I doubt very much if he gets to read it but I'm amazed given his previous experience he has managed if anything to take the side further down than under Batista who we thought was terrible.

    And at least Diego managed to get the players fired up. No sign of that at all judging the hang dog expressions on the players faces. It certainly is not a happy camp.
     
  4. Albiceleste2010

    Albiceleste2010 Member

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    Indeed. El Loco managed to formulate a lot of this so called Barca philosophy a long time before Barca employed it. Would he take up the reins again ? He seems quite happy at Bilbao.

    Does he need the hassle ? Him with Pochettino as assistant who is fully conversant in the latest techniques of computer analysis would not be a bad bet.
     


  5. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm beyond unhappy with Sabella but the problem you note is basic football 101. It's the foundation of what anyone that has played the game has heard that preached over and over. If these guys need a coach to remind them of that then they aren't smart players and have no business being on this side. That there is Sabella's fault. The reason the 1986 side was so successful was from those players being football smart at the same level as physical talent. This generation is far from it. Why work as hard when you can sign one contract and make as much if not more than most of those players of that generation? Our players are lazy and spoiled plain and simple.

    There is talent there, the problem lies in that each time we've introduced young defenders the minute they screwed up (a virtue of youth) they are called to be dropped. Earlier in this thread I mentioned Coloccini and he is a great example of this. Over the past four years he's been one of the most consistent Argentine defenders and fittest as well. He is also Captaining a side that out of nowhere is third in the EPL. He should have been an anchor in the selection and now we are looking at experimenting with young players when we can least afford to experiment.

    That would be Juan Roman Riquelme. No need to even consider him though as he can hardly stay fit for more than a match or two at time with my club. What an ironic coincidence that he leaves the NT as the most trashed player and we've looked absolute shit since. What we lack the most is what he was all about.

    Saludos:)

    Why do you guys bang on about Bielsa so much? He hasn't done much as a coach. Three league titles in Argentina and a Gold while coaching a total of eight clubs or countries. 2002 World Cup? As much of a disaster as 2010 and it was his lack of player selection, his substitutes and lack of tactical change that helped expedite our early exit......that and the pig Veron. You have to go back almost ten years to find something Bielsa has won. Eliminate that and it's 20 years since he's done anything. He isn't the answer.
     
  6. NYC_COSMOS

    NYC_COSMOS BigSoccer Supporter

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    If I'm not mistaken it was an 11 hour BBQ, that brought all this knowledge to Guardiola. A mutual filmmaker friend introfduced them.
     
  7. NYC_COSMOS

    NYC_COSMOS BigSoccer Supporter

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    I've always liked Colocho, even when he wasn't playing well. This kid has turned into a formidable CB and should have taken over the CB spot right after Ayala left.

    Anyhow is disappearance from the NT tells us more that players that are 'in' play and those that probably have no economic ties to Grondona and AFA are 'out'!

    How else do you explain Demichelis being on this team over and over. How do you explain several Velez players not being on the team? River players? But if you follow the papers and the in fighting in Argentine Futbol then you being to understand what's going on with the NT.

    Did you see the recent video scandal with Carlos Avila and Grondona?
     
  8. Santista1962

    Santista1962 Red Card

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    Messi = Menos eficiente sin su Iniesta :D

    Seriously, though, Cosmos is right. How has it been since Argentina started forming teams with European-based players as the backbone?

    From 1994 WC till now?

    How did it go when Argentina used local players as the base from 1974-1990?

    Enough said.

    Unfortunetly, the nation itself screwed your national league, making it to be a Mickey Mouse tournament in more ways than one.
     
  9. SupaMario

    SupaMario Member+

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    Wasn't that Gago?
     
  10. SupaMario

    SupaMario Member+

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    The biggest issue is that Messi has no idea what he is for the NT. Can Messi play in the MF and try to control a game? Messi led La Liga in assists last year, he had over 20 assists for Barcelona last year. But I am not sure if Messi knows how to hold onto a ball. He is like that kid who has a bundle of energy who needs to always run. Can Messi learn to hold the ball now? I don't know. But I would like him to play in the MF for us, stay put and stop making so many damn runs and losing the ball. We have some solid goal scorers who can find the back of the net. I just feel like Messi still is trying to be that goalscorer, that general who tries to assisted.

    The best Messi we have seen is the one who can control a game on his own, the one who makes the plays, not the one who tries to force himself scoring goals. In the first 45minutes of the game against Uruguay, he was great. Then he tried to do too much and we failed.

    Messi does not need to score goals to be successful, he has to understand that. As Cosmos said, it's suppose to be a simple game of passing and moving. Messi has enough skill to hold the ball, but when he makes those dashing runs, I go like, wait until he gets knocked down or gets stripped.

    And some say why are blaming Messi, we are not blaming Messi; however when you are the #10 of the NT and are the captain, and proclaimed best in the world, then it's going to happen(Open season as they call it).
     
  11. Albiceleste2010

    Albiceleste2010 Member

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    Yes the one that was allowed was Gago who isn't playing badly at all. The one I refer to is the one the idiot incompetent fool of a referee (some of his decisions hint at trying to fix the game) refused to play the advantage.

    Any competent official would have allowed it.

    The standard of the refereeing in CONMEBOL is pretty poor. The number of fouls the Bolivians were allowed to get away with was ridiculous.
     
  12. atomicbloke

    atomicbloke Member+

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    I agree with this.

    Messi and Higuain are Argentines just on a technicality. They are actually Spanish and French respectively, who just happen to hold Argentine passports. We need to get some real Argentines in the Albiceleste shirt, like it was before 1994.
     
  13. cigar_city

    cigar_city Member

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    Messi and Higuain are just as or likely more Argentino than you and I.

    If it was up to Messi, he would have never left Argentina at all.

    We all know why he left, under what circumstances.

    It is insulting to tell him he is not Argentino.

    The Catalan and Spanish press wanted him to play for Spain, they created this puncher's chance for Spain to acquire yet another naturalized mercenary. When the time came for him to choose, his selection was never going to be a mystery, no anxiety over which country he would select. That's Because he is Argentine.
     
  14. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator Staff Member

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    Cigar City pretty much nailed it. You can throw criticism at Messi for his play all you want and can make an argument but the nationalism question is bogus. He might have moved young, but he still spent many early years in Argentina. He still spends his off-season at home. That's good enough for me. Same with Higuain, different circumstances but no doubt he feels it.
     
  15. NYC_COSMOS

    NYC_COSMOS BigSoccer Supporter

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    I remember a time when midfielders would tell forwards were the ball was going to be played. When there wasn't such electricity and more solid passing. When there was less back heels and more shots on goal.

    Messi is really destroying my love for la seleccion. Listen kid, you are being selfish! You want to play every game and every minute but you are causing a lot of our problems !!! Scale it back. Give some minutes to Aguero to burrito Martinez to anyone else!!!
     
  16. NYC_COSMOS

    NYC_COSMOS BigSoccer Supporter

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    In 2007, when we played the Copa in Venezuela, Messi didn't need to be on the team. He was a welcomed addition but we would have accomplished the same with or without him.

    After that tournament, Messi started to become the central piece to our strategy and we began our fall from grace. He's been the only consistent thing on the NT since then and he's never been changed.

    Maybe it's time.
     
  17. NYC_COSMOS

    NYC_COSMOS BigSoccer Supporter

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    It's funny how Sabella sets the mood prior to these games.

    Before chile there wasn't much talk, actually he was propping them up, but his main focus was on how the Venezuela game was going to be hard.

    Result we lost.

    Now the talk before Bolivia was centered around the Copa America game. And how having two teams is not the right thing to do.

    Result same out come as in the Copa.

    In a couple of days we face Colombia, who Sabella has been saying is going to be a hard game because of the heat and humidity. He's been saying this for over a month now. How on earth can he predict the weather on the day of the game??

    Barranquilla right now is the same temp as buenos aires maybe the nights are slightly colder but it's 85 during the day just like in Barranquilla. Humidity you say, have you been to buenos aires??? It's as humid as anywhere else!!

    So why is Sabella opening the parachute before we even play? It's not like we haven't played in the heat before?? Hell our biggest rival brazil is hotter than Colombia and we play and win their all the time and against a higher level of opponent!!

    What gives? What's going on?

    Result in Colombia = 3-1 loss.

    Sabella and certain players will blame the heat and humidity. The NT will experience an all time low.
     
  18. zant

    zant Member

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    The team badly needs a playmaker.Someone to control the tempo and distribute the ball well.It is more than clear that Messi cannot fulfill this role as his tempo is exhausting and cannot be maintained for 90 minutes.Since Riquelme left, Argentina have tried to play a faster game in order to benefit from the the presence of players like Messi,Aguero ,Higuain etc who are very fast.However, this style doesn't seem to suit the team,as the players make far too many mistakes,they keep losing the ball easily thus leaving our slow defence exposed ( i have noticed Messi doing this too many times, for example yesterday he lost the ball in the middle trying to dribble past two players instead of passing the ball and so Bolivia had a chance to counter attack with a numerical advantage ).It seems that the players on their attempt to play fast,they become careless and impatient.This is due to the lack of a playmaker who will provide the team with some security and patience when the ball is hot.In my opinion , Pastore cannot play that role as he is more of a trequartista rather than a 10. Maybe Montillo or D'Alessandro can help correct this situation and organize our gameplay better.Of course Sabella has to correct the defence too,as we have absolutely no chance to be successful with Demichelis at the back.
     
  19. ChaChaFut

    ChaChaFut Member

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    I'm really baffled at the Argentine team situation. So many great players, just can't make a great team. Some of Sabella's decisions are making his predecessors look good :eek:

    Aguero should be playing.

    I also agree with those saying that there are no leaders in the team. I'm not a big fan of Coloccini's dirty habits but I respect his qualities as a defender and leader and I think he would be an asset to the team now as he was in the past with the youth team.
     
  20. Albiceleste2010

    Albiceleste2010 Member

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    This is a rumoured line up. Obvious Sabella is running scared:


    ----------------------Romero-----------------------

    --Zabaleta--Fernandez---Burdisso---Rodriguez--
    --Sosa---------Braña--------Guinazu------Gago--
    -----------------Messi-------Higuain---------------


    Fernandez fine but is this going to become the Estudiantes XI ? Old players who wont be there in 2014 ? Is Sabella so fearful for his job he wishes to play three defensive midfielders ?

    I can see he wants to shield the defence and allow the fullbacks to operate by tucking Sosa and Gago in and rely on the counter of Messi and Higuain but this is cowardly.

    How exactly does Mascherano rate below Guinazu or Brana ? If they were really top notch they'd be in Europe. Both struggled in the domestic friendlies.

    Gago and Sosa out wide ? Neither are wide players. No balance from a Gaitan.

    It's maddening. He has panicked and gone back to what he knows and trusts. He needs to realize there are other players outside of Estudiantes.

    Someone ring up Bielsa, Pochettino or even Menotti........ They seem to understand the mechanics of football.

    Or ask me to manage the side. I would know who to pick and to build for the future and get the team playing to a set of plans and their potential. Really.

    --------------------Romero---------------------------
    Ansaldi---------Burdisso-----Silvestre------Tagliafico--
    --------------Mascherano----------------------------
    -----------------------------Banega-----------------
    -------------------Pastore--------------------------
    ------Messi----------------------------Gaitan-------
    ---------------------Higuain------------------------

    or some other permutations in midfield or upfront to make it slightly more defensive or offensive as required ie bring in Burrito Martinez for his ability to work hard from the front and tuck into midfield or Gago for Pastore with a relatively flat three but Gago given license to roam.

    Talent is there in abundance. Yet this coach is making his predecessors look like geniuses with their selections and tactics.

    A proper coach would organize the side properly and get it to wake up from it'd bad habits and general malaise.

    Who knows we may win on Tuesday but if we lose I think even though Sabella has been in the hotseat for a few games it might be time to jettison him because some of his selections and the way he has set up the side are mind boggling.

    As for Messi and Higuain not being Argentina CC is exactly right. It's a stupid argument. For the love of god it;s not about where a player plays his football but who is organizing the side. Tabarez for instance manages to get his side operating effectively.

    No need to then bring in spurious arguments about where they play, do they feel Uruguayan, earning too much has made them not care about the national side and other such nonsense.

    I wonder perish the thought if someone who is a decent coach took over what heights this team could acheive because these players have skills to match anyone in the world.

    I am mystified as to how long this nonsense will continue. Infact as SM said I am almost becoming inured to it. A brief spell of rage and anger followed by acceptance....... :(
     
  21. Pekerman

    Pekerman Member

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    We have been over this. I understand your hate for Bielsa but attacking his credentials is a bit silly. He is proven and respected. Yes he messed up in 2002 but we have been over this numerous times and there were a lot of uncontrollable circumstances going against him (injuries, players out of form, penalty from a dive ect).

    I know he left your love child Riquelme out, he did try him in a friendly (and he was great I have the footage) but ultimately he did not want to ruin the balance of the team that demolished everything in sight during the qualification. Veron was the center supported by two integral players in Kily and Simeone. There was no spot left for him simple as that.
    It is not like he is the first or last argentine coach to omit players and at the time when the team was on rampage I dont think many would have much to argue with.

    His system has proven itself. I have most of the games from 2000 until 2002 taped and honestly those are my best memories of the team. We did not just play, we dominated and our style was imposed from the kickoff. The players were like tireless machines, they retrieved the ball as soon as we lost it, I remember Batistuta pressuring the backlines forcing mistakes and exploiting them heartlessly.

    A lot of the teams we faced could not get a shot on target!! It was like a much better version of what Barcelona is today but everyone has forgotten. Go watch some of the games and tell me since when you seen us this fluid. Pekerman himself had all of this tactics from Bielsa. Ask the players who was the most influential coach they had...it is a unanimous answer for anyone who played under him. We have lost before him, we have lost since he left but sometimes you have to look beyond results. I want a team with identity first and foremost..
     
  22. zant

    zant Member

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    One of the things that make Bielsa such a great coach is his ability to create teams with identity.No one can deny that.I wish he was given a second chance.His high-tempo style would do miracles with players like messi,aguero,lavezzi,pastore etc.
     
  23. Volrath

    Volrath Member

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    Picking Gallardo and Caniggia ahead of Riquelme and Saviola was the dumbest ********ing thing that Bielsa has ever done.

    Besides Bielsa's tactics haven't changed a single bit since 2002. Still very verticle, still very fast. Still extremely vulnerable on the counter. The man would rather fall on his sword then admit his faults and be a little bit more flexible. Admirable, if it wasn't so stupid.
     
  24. zant

    zant Member

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    I suggest you watch a Bilbao game.Also ask Guardiola whether he finds Bielsa's tactics stupid or not.
     
  25. atomicbloke

    atomicbloke Member+

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    If we are forced to make yet another coaching change before 2014.... really there is only one option left...

    Bielsa is old news... Pekerman isn't available... Diego, Checho were disasters... really only one name is left by elimination....

    If we are forced to make a coaching change, it would mean the qualification tournament has turned in to a disaster and we are in real danger of missing out.... In desperate times, we could only turn to one man.... Don Grondona should swallow his ego and give him a call....
     

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