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Arsenal : Manchester City [R]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by MassachusettsRef, Jan 13, 2013.

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  1. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator Staff Member

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    Going to go ahead and start this now. DOGSO red and missed penalty in the 10th minute. Very interesting decision for a number of reasons and definitely a talking point.
     


  2. iron81

    iron81 Member+

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  3. iron81

    iron81 Member+

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    Let's try my .gifs again:

    [​IMG]

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    [​IMG]
     
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  4. colman1860

    colman1860 Member

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    Disagree with Kompany SFP. While certainly reckless, his studs aren't exposed to Wilshere's legs, and I wouldn't call this excessive force either. Thoughts?
     


  5. uniqueconstraint

    uniqueconstraint Member+

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    I have to watch the Komoany one later - still getting through the united- Liverpool match - but just looking atbthis gif I'm drawn to ask how is Kompany's linge in any different than wilshire's?

    Gotta see the actual clip though.

    Wow, sorry for all the typos...
     
  6. aaronriley

    aaronriley Member

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    If you watch closely Wilshire slips, he doesn't slide into him he just loses his footing. It takes a replay to see that because my first thought was that they would both be off, with Wilshire at least getting his 2nd yellow if not a red. I'm sure we could(and will) break this down and everyone will argue it frame by frame but at full speed and in the atmosphere of the match I agree with Mike Dean.
     
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  7. chwmy

    chwmy Member

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    Arsenal fan -

    Koscielny does a bear hug and gets called- should be a penalty. If more refs would make this call (esp on free kicks and corners), people would stop the incessant manhandling that occurs in the box so often.

    As for red, I know this is how it is called, but philosophically I have doubts because the ball is contestable by sczesny and teves, by which I mean that the opportunity negated by the foul is not so obvious. I know this usually gets called this way, primarily when an "in" attacker gets fouled while awaiting a cross to arrive.

    So, I have no objection to the foul determination and sanction. I do feel that an attacker's opportunity to score is a lot less when he doesn't have the ball yet.
     
  8. uniqueconstraint

    uniqueconstraint Member+

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    Clear penalty, I can understand why dogso would leave a bad taste but that's the call. Watching the replay, why oh why does it take 6 arsenal players to contest the call?
     
  9. NC Soccer United

    NC Soccer United BigSoccer Yellow Card

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    Vincent Kompany's tackle is what we, or so I think, consider as endangering the safety of the opponent. Those two studs were well exposed and above the ground. If he connects to the shin of Wilshere, he will have snapped that leg in half.
     
  10. NW Referee

    NW Referee Member

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    On the missed penalty the AR takes a really unusual position after the deflection off the keeper and comes off the goal line on to the field which puts him in a position where he can't judge the goal line for a goal-no goal decision. It looks like he quickly realizes he's in the wrong position and goes back to the goal line.

    Nothing happened because of his positioning and the correct decision (no goal) was made. See 1:02 in the Fox video (link in post #2).
     
  11. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

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    DOGSO, the successor to the "professional foul" species of SFP, was designed to stop cynical fouls from preventing goals. Put aside DOGSO criteria for a moment: that's what this was -- a take down by an American-football tackle of an attacker with a chance to score. If that isn't DOGSO, we should abandon the concept. Going back to the 4 Ds (which aren't quite the same mandate outside the US, but let's table that for a moment), where do you really have an issue. Defenders, check, Distance to goal, check. Direction to goal, check. Distance to ball -- yeah, I got a check there, too -- he almost gets to the ball even though he is being held back. I think this one is easy.

    (And I just don't see eviscerating the DOGSO on the ground that maybe a teammate of the victim would get there first.)
     
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  12. refmedic

    refmedic Member

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    Great job by the AR on the missed penalty. When it hit the post, he was headed back to his position on the touch line. Good on him to stop in his tracks and be there for the goal line decision.

    I agree with the DOGSO vs professional foul analysis above. Dean could have played advantage to see if Tevez was able to capitalize, but once he calls the foul, he has no choice but to go red.

    On replay, the Kompany sending off is a bad call IMO. It was interesting to see the replays on TV, though. From the side and from behind, it was obvious that Kompany didn't lunge, didn't show his studs, and got all ball. In fact, his second foot hits the ground in front of the ball. They also showed the angle the Dean had. From Dean's perspective, it looks like Kompany leaves his feet, comes in with 2 feet, studs up, and cleans the opponent out. Talk about a great case for the old "Angle of View" CD. I've never seen anything like it. Dean made the call he saw from the viewpoint he had. From his perspective, that's red all day. Great game, though.
     
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  13. lemma

    lemma Member

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    How would you reconcile your contradiction here?

    You can only referee what you see. You acknowledge that what Dean saw was a clear sending off. Doesn't that make it a good call?

    How exactly was it a bad call? Was it a bad call because his positioning was poor? Was it a bad call because an AR should have provided information to the referee to help him make the decision?

    Or perhaps it was what one could call a "structural" or "institutional" bad call. In other words, it was a bad call because of the way officials are instructed as to what are best practices. Was it a bad call because referees are told to be in the wrong position? Was it a bad call because the AR might have seen the challenge from a better angle but is taught not to share this information in these circumstances? Was it a bad call because there should be more officials on the field to see things from more angles? Was it a bad call because the officials do not have access to video evidence?

    I admit I am playing with definitions here. I've taken your definition of bad call, which is "shown to be suspect from one of many available camera angles" and changed it. I'm not really picking on you.
     
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  14. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

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    Lemma is asking all the right questions. I think this forum helps us the most when we ask questions like his. We, as referees, need to know WHY he made that call as he did, not necessarily that it is wrong or right.

    Here's why I think he made the call. Kompany is coming in pretty straight and he is about to go in with both feet off the ground. But, he doesn't end up that way because he is BEYOND quick, and is able to change his body in a way that goes in hard, and I might argue, fairly too.

    I think it may be a fair challenge, but one that started out so dangerous that Dean called it in his mind before it actually happened! I think the card will be overturned.

    A similar thing happened to Jack Rodwell when he was with Everton about a year ago. I don't remember the exact circumstances, but he certainly looked like he was going in with both feet and then suddenly his body shifted so quickly that it became a legit tackle.

    Fast players. And his eyes deceived Mike Dean.
     
  15. chwmy

    chwmy Member

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    Fairly said. You probably know more about the genesis of the dogso rules than me, but my impression is that the dogso rule was put in place to eliminate the cynical foul that prevents a goal that is all but certain, i.e. a pk is preferable. Why else would dogso-h be made in parallel? (And yet, the rule is denial of the opportunity, not the goal...)

    A small distinction, perhaps, but I feel that there is a big difference in the obviousness of the opportunity when the ball has not yet arrived in the area of the foul.

    I guess we'll see- there was grumblings of modification to the dogso rules (which I really hope comes to pass, at least with respect to the keeper). As it stands, however, I agree with the call and sanction.
     
  16. billf

    billf Member+

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    I think Kompany earned a red there. You have a skilled player running at top speed, who's endured a couple of serious leg injuries btw, getting tackled by what was basically a brick wall. He got the ball, yes, but he went into that aggressively and second leg looks to have been high. At full speed it looks awful. Dean was also right there, so I have no problem with it.

    The red for DGF was interesting. I'm not sure I see it, but I get it.
     
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  17. andymoss

    andymoss BigSoccer Supporter

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    My thoughts on the Kompany dismissal.

    Dean was straight on. Problem #1.

    He didn't move to improve his angle. Problem #2. In fact, he is walking as play goes away from him.
     
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  18. jayhonk

    jayhonk Member+

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    I remember concluding after playing with the Angle of View software: The worst place to stand to judge a sliding tackle like this is right behind the slider; the second worst is right in front -- where Dean was. I am not sure we can learn from this--since if Mike Dean was frozen in his tracks, I probably would be, too-- but, I guess we should try. Move to get a better angle; even when you have a clear view!
    ............................................................................................
    (Kompany's tackle actually looks clean to me.)
    (I was watching this game, and turned it off at halftime, thinking "this games is over, the only reason to keep watching is to see if someone else gets a Red.")
     
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  19. Englishref

    Englishref Member

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    In my, slightly biased opinion, the Koscielny red was correct. Definite foul and enough to warrant a DOGSO. My only issue with it is more than Mike Dean, and his colleagues, will turn a blind eye to exactly the same thing next week, so it's the picking and choosing when to do it that frustrates you when it's finally called against your team.

    As for Kompany, again, I agree with the red card. Once you leave the ground, you lose control of your body and therefore endanger the opponent. Again, a minor issue in that Mike Dean went to show yellow first of all, and then seemed to change his mind (player/crowd intimidation?) and went red. Having said this, I wouldn't be surprised if The FA overturn the ban.
     
  20. refmedic

    refmedic Member

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    I didn't say it was an incorrect call. I said it was a bad call, because Dean got the call wrong (IMO). A sending off is the second most critical call in a match to goal/no goal. Based on what he saw from his terrible angle, without the benefit of replay, he made the correct call. It just so happens that a the end of the day, the correct call based on the circumstances can still be a bad call.

    Andy pretty much hit it on the head pretty succinctly about why it happened.
     
  21. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member

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    Do not really see the problem with either red. Both pretty clear quite and not surprised that Dean gave them. I can see the argument that it is not really consistent with how other refs would have called in the EPL. I can name a few refs in the EPL that would not have sent off either Koscielny or Kompany.

    Excellent calls by Dean. He in my opinion has probably been the best referee in England over the past couple of seasons. Never afraid to make the big call and he is usually spot on.
     
  22. aaronriley

    aaronriley Member

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    The Kompany red card has been overturned.
     
  23. soccerman771

    soccerman771 Member

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    Of course. We can't have a star player on a top team on suspension for a home game this weekend. This undercuts the referee and diminishes their authority.
     
  24. J'can

    J'can Member+

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    this is laughable. what authority??

    havent you heard?? the concession stand soda guy has more clout (per another thread in this forum)
     
  25. NC Soccer United

    NC Soccer United BigSoccer Yellow Card

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    The FA is turning into the NBA. We'll suspend the crap out of certain bit players and a few stars just to show we don't favor the stars, but we'll overturn refs decisions with bus tracks all over them.
     
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