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Atheists Debate How Pushy to Be

Discussion in 'Spirituality & Religion' started by Revolt, Oct 16, 2010.

  1. Dignan

    Dignan Member+

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    That is exactly what I described... or at least capitalism in a global society. Its a sad thing, but much of our wealth in the West is dependent on the misfortune and suffering of the rest of the world.
     


  2. Dignan

    Dignan Member+

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    Hello Pot, nice to meet you.

    The sky is blue.
     
  3. GiancarloC

    GiancarloC Member

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    It's not that simple.

    You seem to make things black and white.

    Along with your persistent failure to address my points.
     
  4. Dignan

    Dignan Member+

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  5. GiancarloC

    GiancarloC Member

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    This is more of you saying I should take your word on it.

    Sweden also helps the poor and is a very modified economic system. So why not talk about that? I have no problem with that sort of system... and for once I don't disagree with you.

    Cool.

    Then we must address the economic reasons why it exists.

    Not at all. My friend isn't a prostitute. He's doing it on his free will, as do many porn stars. It's their choice to get involved. And here in the United States, the porn industry is extremely highly regulated. And in places where prostitution is illegal, pornography isn't.

    Sure, some of it is coercive, but most is not. Pornography I don't believe is negative. If it helps people from having sex with a bunch of people (doing the deed as I'll say, erhm, hands)... then what's wrong with it? My friend isn't being negatively impacted by doing it. Porn can be helpful for people to get off, instead of going to prostitutes. So I think porn could actually by at odds with prostitution.

    That's a complete generalization.

    Another generalization. While a little more valid then the last generalization, still is a generalization.
     
  6. StiltonFC

    StiltonFC Viking Pineapple Presents

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    i'm not making the comparisons. you're saying i'm making the comparisons. let me remind you: several pages ago, someone said that Jesus hung out with prostitutes. i agreed with that statement but said that he didn't endorse prostitution. that's all i said. i didn't say prostitution was akin to anything. i didn't compare prostitution to homosexuality. you did that. and i suspect your intent was to try to paint me as someone who would make such a comparison, contrary to fact.

    drinking bleach would kill you. you don't have to ask a doctor whether you should drink bleach, and a doctor doesn't have to tell you not to drink bleach, because it's already known to be poison. i'm not comparing drinking bleach to any other behavior. i'm giving an example of something we don't need to be told by a doctor not to do. Jesus did not tell us everything to do and not do. some things are obvious.

    for example, Jesus doesn't have to tell us not to steal. it's a commandment. but he might have to clarify what stealing encompasses. you might not see taking a 90 minute lunch "hour" as stealing, but it's stealing unless you make up the time elsewhere with your employer's knowledge and permission.

    you might think it's OK to act out in anger toward someone who has hurt you, but Jesus says that anyone who is angry with his brother or sister is subject to judgment.

    you can attribute to me whatever you wish, but that doesn't mean that it's what i said or meant.
     
  7. GiancarloC

    GiancarloC Member

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    Very well, but when I brought homosexuality, why did you bring up the other examples?

    Um, nobody is talking about bleach or suggesting one should drink it. Don't know why you'd bring this up.

    Did I ever bring this up? Societies had laws against stealing predating christianity and the bible.

    Did I say anything about anger? I could care less what religion has to say about anger. Anger is a natural human emotion everyone has. I never said it was okay to act out in anger towards anyone. Where did I say that? One has to have self control regardless of what any tenuous religious text says.

    Red herring.

    You rely on red herrings, and you don't really discuss the topic. Fine then. You never had any intent to discuss anything with an open mind.
     
  8. argentine soccer fan

    argentine soccer fan Moderator Staff Member

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    Are you assuming that prostitutes are all female, and pimps and customers are all male?
     
  9. Dignan

    Dignan Member+

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    No, but it tends to be the majority.

    A month a go Spanish police busted a prostitution ring of 30 young male Brazilians who were essentially being held against their will and were sex slaves.

    Men do get abused as well, but overwhelmingly the issue is men buying sex from women, or men buying sex from men. Rarely do women buy sex from men or other women, although it does happen.
     
  10. StiltonFC

    StiltonFC Viking Pineapple Presents

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    one more time: someone said Jesus hung out with prostitutes. i commented on that.

    you said Jesus didn't say anything about homosexuality. i said he didn't because his audience was Jews. Jews of Jesus' day understood the biblical strictures regarding homosexuality.

    you don't have to be told not to drink bleach because everyone knows not to drink bleach, unless they don't know what bleach is. Jews knew what homosexuality is.

    now, about marriage and divorce. Jews had some misunderstandings. Jesus clarified those issues.

    Jesus taught Jews of his day that the spirit of the law and the letter of the law are not the same. you may obey the letter of the law but violate the spirit of the law. you may never steal anything in terms of taking someone's property, but you may cheat your employer out of time that you should be working. understanding the breadth and depth of what it means to obey God requires some explanation to people for whom the letter is the final word.
     
  11. GiancarloC

    GiancarloC Member

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    So?

    Um, the bible has been translated many times over. The verses on homosexuality have been mistranslated over the years (especially by King James...).

    This is one of the most ridiculous statements coming from you yet.

    Red herring.

    I got a feeling I am getting nowhere by replying... I still am waiting responses on my points and I'm not getting any.
     
  12. StiltonFC

    StiltonFC Viking Pineapple Presents

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    evidence?


    but you aren't making any points. you persist in claiming i'm saying things i'm not saying. you don't understand simple explanations. you yell "red herring" as a final vain attempt at argument.
     
  13. GiancarloC

    GiancarloC Member

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    Funny you demand it when you provide zero.

    I've made several points. You simply refuse to respond. Simple explanations to what? You can't address homosexuality in relation to the bible. It's like you keep avoiding the topic. But you need some serious help man. I'm worried about you.
     
  14. Ismitje

    Ismitje Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Is this an ant-BigSoccer post? We thrive on people accessing it while at work! :)
     
  15. StiltonFC

    StiltonFC Viking Pineapple Presents

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    [​IMG]
    ants iz ants...
     
  16. Dr. Know

    Dr. Know Member+

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    Here's an original post by ratdog from some years ago regarding the verse in COrinthinas about homosexuality being an abomination.

    http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11558066&postcount=246

     
  17. argentine soccer fan

    argentine soccer fan Moderator Staff Member

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    That's a good post.

    Really, regardless of where we stand on the meaning of the ancient language words on a few particular verses, the important point is that if anybody reads the gospels and the rest of the New Testament it is obvious that the issue is not given that much importance, compared to other matters. It's not at all what Christianity is about, and yet today many Church leaders seem obsessed with it.

    Certainly we can speculate that there must have been a great culture clash between Jewish traditional culture about sex and the way the Greeks and the Romans behaved. It must have been a big deal at the time of the New Testament, for people living in Judea. And yet the New Testament doesn't dwell on such issues as much as one might expect.

    When we look at the themes in the NT, the emphasis is on love, forgiveness, compassion, charity and so on. In the words of Saint Paul, "Three things remain, faith, hope and love, and the greatest of these is love". The fundies should meditate on that one.
     
  18. StiltonFC

    StiltonFC Viking Pineapple Presents

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    here's the problem: Paul doesn't mention murderers. He doesn't mention arsonists. He doesn't mention every wrong behavior that people could indulge themselves in. He spends his energies on behaviors that had relatively broad social acceptance. He's talking to people who were mostly Greeks originally. He's writing in Greek.

    Whether the Greeks of Corinth were aware of the Jewish position on homosexuality, and the OT doesn't mince words, I cannot say. But lack of mention does not mean acceptance. You cannot apply tacere acceptans to these issues in this context because it isn't Paul's intention to be all-inclusive. If it were his intention we would see him list all errant behaviors.

    Having said that, the word translated "fornicators" is "pornoi". This would include all sexually immoral behavior, which would naturally include all sex apart from marriage. All sex apart from marriage would include homosexual sex from Paul's and from any Jew's perspective in those times.

    A reason for listing "adulterers" ( who would also be "fornicators" in a purely technical sense ) and "pornoi" separately would be to eliminate the possibility that someone might justify himself by saying, "I'm married, but my spouse won't have sex with me". Sex with anyone other than your spouse is adultery if you are married. It may be included in the larger category of sexual immorality, but it's a specific behavior unto itself.
     
  19. GiancarloC

    GiancarloC Member

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    Stilton really seems so confident of his weak assertions. Where is his proof that what is mentioned about homosexuality was actually about homosexuality to begin with? Where in the bible does it say gay marriage is wrong? You see these things he will never answer because he relies on conjectures and what he thinks of the past.

    You see his view is silly. Homosexuals can't get married, so they can't have sex because the sex they have is immoral (and comparable to adultery - which is absolute bullocks). What about two homosexuals in a relationship with each other who are married? I guess in his eyes, that marriage is invalid (even if it is recognized)...

    You can't run in as many circles as this guy. It's like watching a dog chase its tail.

    I guess gays just need to stay celibate in his eyes hahahah. Completely comical.
     
  20. StiltonFC

    StiltonFC Viking Pineapple Presents

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    homosexuals can do whatever they think is right in their eyes. they cannot expect their behavior to align with what the Bible says. when same-sex marriage is endorsed by most people, and it isn't now, there will have been a cultural shift. that may come a year from now or ten years from now.

    your problem, GC, is that you cannot understand the simple fact that a Jewish rabbi would have no reason to speak on the subject of homosexuality. it doesn't need to be clarified.

    stealing, on the other hand, needs to be clarified, because people justify their behavior by saying that it wasn't really stealing.

    almost 48 years ago, when i was going to college and working in a market, i used to ring up even money sales and keep a tab. then i would use the money in the cash drawer to "buy" a carton of cigarettes or a bottle of cheap wine. i never took actual money.

    why did i do that? because i was paid less than other people doing the same work. i never once thought about the fact that they once were paid less for doing the same work. i really thought i was entitled to the "fringe benefits". it took a couple of fairly significant events in my live to refine my thinking. i knew i could get in trouble if i got caught, but i had so effectively rationalized my actions that i felt virtually no guilt.

    what Jesus taught us -- and Paul amplifies -- is that our notions of right and wrong are self-indulgent. this isn't a debatable issue: it's an established fact. nobody lives up to his own moral standard all of the time. we all violate our own code of conduct. if another person does it, it's wrong; if we do it, it's on account of mitigating circumstances. but we don't extend the same mitigation to everyone else all the time.

    as long as a person doesn't have sex with children or those unwilling, i could not be less concerned with what they do, personally. it's really none of my business.

    but if you want to try to say that the Bible does not proscribe against homosexual behavior, then you will get an argument, because you're wrong.

    if you don't accept the authority of the Bible, that's your prerogative. but it's clear on the issue.
     
  21. GiancarloC

    GiancarloC Member

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    The problem here is no.

    It's not what the bible says. It's about what YOU THINK the bible says. I've never seen you cite anything to back up your arguments, but at this point in time I don't expect you to. Gay marriage is already legal in several major countries, and several states within this nation.

    I have no problem. As far as I'm concerned you're the one with problems in providing support for your statements... ergo, your statements are based on simple conjectures and nothing more.

    And here we go with the analogies... which have absolutely nothing to do with this argument. If you cannot meet the basic expectations of an argument, don't make ridiculous claims.

    Alas, another irrelevant personal example that have nothing to do with this argument. I can't believe you even bring this up to justify your anti-gay attitudes (which I've proven wrong on numerous occasions).

    So you working is similar to someone who is in love with someone of the same gender? You really are running in more circles then I thought. And you know what? I doubt you even know what the bible says. You simply regurgitate what you've been told by elders.

    No, that's what YOU THINK. The bible doesn't proscribe against homosexual behavior at all. And I'm willing to make that statement with some confidence, even though I'm atheist. There has been a recent study showing atheists know the most about the bible...

    It seems like you're completely lost.

    No, I don't accept your rhetoric and disgust. And I certainly don't accept your interpretation (which is basically backed by nothing!).

    It's not your way or the highway... you seem to think everyone must live to your narrow interpretations... or will go to hell. That's disgusting. Your contempt of other human beings is insidious.

    You are the one who made a weak claim that homosexuality is just about self-indulgence. Are you bloody serious? Instead of skirting around the issues, why don't you actually try to ADDRESS things directly. No more personal examples about you stealing. I don't care! So I guess only white, heterosexual Christians know about love huh? LMAO.
     
  22. StiltonFC

    StiltonFC Viking Pineapple Presents

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    some atheists know more about the bible than some Christians.

    one atheist i've encountered on the internet thinks he knows a lot about the bible, but he doesn't know as much as he thinks he does.

    he doesn't understand the idea of historical context very well.

    when he does understand historical context, he will get it that Jesus had an audience who had a clear cut perspective. he addressed that audience, whether it was Pharisees or other Jews. to Pharisees he said one thing; to other Jews, men and women who were open to his teaching, he said other things.

    but he always spoke as a first century Jewish rabbi.

    you don't know what that entails. if you did, you wouldn't make such obviously empty claims.

    one more thing.

    thanks for the neg rep. it's an honor.
     
  23. Dr. Know

    Dr. Know Member+

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    Not some.

    Survey: Atheists, Agnostics Know More About Religion Than Religious

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...gnostics-know-more-about-bible-than-religious
     
  24. StiltonFC

    StiltonFC Viking Pineapple Presents

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    so the way i look at this is that all the atheists in the known world and all the Christians in the known world were queried and those were the results?

    what i said is that some atheists know more than some Christians. if you questioned people who attend some specific churches, you would have different results. that wouldn't be a random sample, but my statement wasn't about a random sample.

    and the questions in the survey do not represent any kind of comprehensive perspective of Christian thought. it's an interesting "test" but i'm not sure it's a valid test.
     
  25. GiancarloC

    GiancarloC Member

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    I'll guess I'll continue being with my guy no matter what fanatical tripe you come up with.

    Everybody has their interpretation and believes it is right... fighting to the death.

    Heck, some people will commit terrorist attacks because their religion has commanded them to do it (Al Qaeda, Real IRA, Uganda LRA, Timothy McVeigh).

    I'm pretty sure most atheists know more than many christians. Atheists often put a lot of thought into religion and do a lot of investigation, but ultimately reject it. I've done the same. I've sat through the sunday school classes and did my own research. This is why I'm so confident in knowing what you say about homosexuality is false.

    You Fully deserved it. Now want a cherry and some whip cream on top?
     

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