Ballon D'Or 2012 (part 2)

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by comme, Oct 29, 2012.

  1. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

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    Puck, I have a saucier doping anecdote: during the mid-eightes, Hector Viera at River Plate built a fantastic side led by Francescoli, along with Alonso, Gallego, Alzamendi, Ruggieri, Enrique and Pumpido (5 WC winners from 78 and 86). Their brand of soccer was something that I still can't forget, and in my opinion, matched Sacchi's AC Milan for its beauty and directness. Anyhow, alongside the reliable Uruguayan forward Alzamendi, a young up and coming starlet by name Ramon Centurion was giving much to talk about, and it was not just for his key goals. There were rumors buzzing that he was doping himself, and his fast and furious play seem to confirm it. Eventually, he was banned after testing positive for doping, as many had expected. His banning gave the chance to two young players to get playing time starting alongside Francescoli and Alzamendi in the attack: Gilberto Funes and the unknown Claudio Caniggia. Funes was the starter, and he did not disappoint, including scoring in both the Libertadores final and the Intercontinental. He was capped for Argentina and played at the CA87, but eventually a heart condition affected his form and sadly he passed away at age 28.

    Years later, rumors came up that Funes, itching for a place in the starting lineup, had actually given Centurion a drink with the doping so that he would be banned. Centurion it turns out never doped himself on purpose, but he never recovered from the ban and the stigma and retired early after some journeyman years with other clubs. Ironic, that things ended sadly for the two players disputing the starting spot, and it would be the young third-string player who rose to become a football legend in his own right.


  2. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

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    Manchester is in southern Europe? :whistling:
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  3. y.o.n.k.o

    y.o.n.k.o Member

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    Puck as a Dutchman, you should be the last person to talk about referees and specifically about the WC2010 final. There should've been two red cards for your lot before Heitinga was even sent off. And don't even get me started on Van Bommel! You guys got outplayed by Spain and decided to hack them all game long, don't even pretend! Shame on you for still "crying" about that final and what calls Spain gets or doesn't get.

    As for the doping, do you understand that there is a difference between "doping" and "every team uses drugs"? Before trying to "enlighten this" maybe you should enlighten yourself first. There are many drugs that all teams use that are not banned drugs. These are usually used for better recovery between games. Everyone knows about them and everyone uses them. As I said "doping scandal" exists only your head.....No Barca/Spain players has yet tested positive for banned substances, fact! But I remember a few Dutch players in the past...Stam, Davids....:p:rolleyes: who tested positive......

    Do you know that last year or the year before that (can't remember exactly) Barca were the most tested team in the Champions League and by UEFA? They were even performing random tests during the week before or after practices in addition to after every CL game. Still nothing.

    As far as I know many players who have been caught recently with positive tests, usually it's because of substances they take not related to performance or recovery drugs. If I'm not mistaken, someone was caught because of eye drops he was using. Another player, Rio Ferdinand I think, tested positive for marijuana. Until a Spanish or Barcelona player is caught testing positive, you have no case! And even if they are caught now, there is still no guarantees they were using something illegal when they won EC 2008/WC 2010/ EC 2012/ CL title. And don't even try to comeback with "UEFA is protecting Spain and Barca" theory, because UEFA or FIFA would not protect any Nation or a team when it comes to illegal substances.

    You are just blowing smoke where there is no fire....
  4. y.o.n.k.o

    y.o.n.k.o Member

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    I don't get why are you posting this....Is this supposed to support some sort of argument you've made?

    No matter how hard you try, you are not going to prove that the current era is weak or that some past era was better/the best. Plus that argument/discussion doesn't belong here.


  5. y.o.n.k.o

    y.o.n.k.o Member

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    Exactly. I wonder why people (Puck and zahzah) continuously cry about Barca/Spain when clearly Man United get the most favorable calls. Juventus is another team like that. And if we start naming them all, we might discover that all big European teams get favorable calls.
  6. Dr. Know

    Dr. Know Member+

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    Messi has improved in FK,s shooting and in the use of his right foot.

    Claims that his speed has dropped are bogus but his dribbling this season is not as good as it was last season. It’s still great but he’s losing in the ball more in tight situations for Barca. For Argentina though he’s destroying defenses in the WCQ’s and friendlies against good opposition not some minnows and has probably been the team’s best player in practically every match so far.

    As was mentioned I believe since Messi became the captain of Argentina they went from 10 in the FIFA rankings to currently 3.
    celito repped this.
  7. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

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    From a Sweden's point of view every other NT are like "south" ... (I guess)

    But I do agree with Krokko that many TOP (big) teams (ManU Barca Real Juve Bayern Milan Chelsea ...) are favored by REF, especially in their home stadium ... for 3main reasons: Pressure from huge crowd, too much respect or ... bribery ! Your choice!
  8. unclesox

    unclesox BigSoccer Supporter

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    Seeing as how you're anti-Spanish (your own admission) is it any wonder no one is willing to help you out?
  9. unclesox

    unclesox BigSoccer Supporter

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    Yes, Supercopa is considered pre-season.
    Anyone who regularly follows La Liga would know that the campaign usually kicks off around the last weekend of August/first weekend of September.
    This season it kicked off the weekend of August 18-19.
    Throw in the pre-season tours of both Real and Barca along with the FIFA international date of August 15 and there was no alternative than to play the Supercopa after La Liga had begun.
    But like I said, anyone who regularly follows La Liga would've known this already.
  10. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

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    Well I don't think what Puck asked (liga's assist from past decade) ever exist anyway.
    Only us American and English are stats mania so it existed with EPL, but not so much elsewhere.
    We could find some stats for liga, SerieA since last 5,6 years but even so they very doubtful in accuracy ... :(
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  11. Betty the Saviour

    Betty the Saviour New Member

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    This Messi guy you are talking about still creates chances, dribbles, magnicifenct passes, and still creeates spectacular curling freekicks. In which area has Messi dropped off?
  12. Betty the Saviour

    Betty the Saviour New Member

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    Apparently Zahza is worried that his boyfriend "Ronaldo" has lost his ability to please him in bed that he searches for other players' defects to make himself feel better.
  13. Krokko

    Krokko Member

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    Ah yes, to Swedish people Danes and Germans are exotic southerners... :ROFLMAO: Gotta tell you i live in Italy since 1992, though.

    As for referees helping big clubs: that has been a constant part of the game in Mediterranean countries for at least half a century now. Already in the 60s, opposing fans went "Así, así, así gana el Madrid" ("This is how Real Madrid win") and teams like Inter, Milan and Juventus were always favoured by officials vs provincial club. In the 60s it was mainly Inter, president Mario Moratti talking directly to referees, even paying their vacations at the Adriatic Riviera. Milan learned the lesson after a few years (on int'l level, watch how they arrived to the 1969 EC final and how they won the CWC final vs Leeds United in 1973!) and Juventus brought the "art" to a new level.

    I can see Mediterranean vices spreading now. British refs used to be very reliable, but fixed matches, diving and not-intirely-impartial officials are becoming a problem everywhere, it seems.
  14. Krokko

    Krokko Member

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    Come on, a forum like this one needs someone with different preferences and points of view. If we were all Barsa-Spain-Masía and tiki-taka fans, what would we discuss?
  15. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

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    Hilarious! I just love cules words of wisdom.
  16. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

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    And yet Messi has:
    a) Dropped off in GPG averages and assists.
    b) Currently scores mostly tap-ins, PKs and FKs (something apparently CR7 was supposed to specialize in :).

    Messi's finishing from half chances has gotten worse, decision making is markedly on the decline, dribbling has gotten less effective, teamplay has significantly taken a hit and speed is lower. Apparently he is increasingly frustrated, as can be seen with acts of aggression against other players and his own teammates (especially Villa).
  17. Krokko

    Krokko Member

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    Messi is almost at the same level as in previous seasons. What has happened is that many other Barsa players have started underperforming: Valdés is doing mistakes we hadn't seen for years, Dani Alves is probably the most overrated player in world football right now, Mascherano and Alexis are struggling, Cesc is inconsistent. If it wasn't for Messi, Iniesta and Xavi (who is less brilliant than 2-3 years ago, bet has an incredibly high lowest level), Barsa could even be within Real Madrid's reach.
  18. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

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    Choi Kang Hee (coach South Korea): " Messi is just perfect. Voting for others would be like making a sympathy vote."

    Harsh truth.
  19. Betty the Saviour

    Betty the Saviour New Member

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    You are acting as if you knew about Messi and watched him everyday. You seem to hate him yet you watch him every week to know all about him. What is that? Are you in love with him?

    Decision making in decline? Yet he still creates mind blowing chances by deciding whether to pass or to shoot. that takes good decision making. Dribbling less effecitve? Man please, go watch messi's dribble on Ramos. O yeah before he dribbled Ramos, he dribbled Marcelo by using his body language alone in the same dribbling run also. I won't even comment on your other arguments coz they don't need to be responded on.

    It's your right to think Messi is in decline but he is still better than Ronaldo by miles.
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    It is easy to counter this with citing a few fouls that Spain committed during the final and whole tournament plus their own admittance that they escaped two red cards but that is not relevant.

    You, just as others, appeal to emotion here. 'You should be the last person to talk about'... Is what you say. That is like saying that Germans, who caused two world wars, cannot have a legitimate opinion about who caused other wars.
    Why don't you refer to the arguments but use the emotion-card like dirty politicians do?

    Because those are from small nations. That are easy scapegoats. It has always been like that and will always be that way. Ernst-Jean Joseph of Haiti was publicly condemned in 1974 while the Germans got a away with it and saw their positive doping tests never made public. And if it happened those whistle-blowers were frozen out of public life (goalkeeper Schumacher) or those ones defended the doping practices (Paul Breitner is a famous name).
    The most famous example is the 1988 Olympics 100m final. Six were drugged up, the Canadian got caught. Dutch athletics coaches who had been there were convinced from the beginning that it was one big dirty game played by Primo Nebiolo and his mates.

    Stam and Davids tested positive for Nandrolon. Typical that the y.o.n.k.o censorship squad omits the names Frank de Boer (Barcelona) and 'Pep' Guardiola (Barcelona). Those got caught too in the same year and worked together with famed doping doctor Seguren, which is still tied to FC Barcelona btw.

    Nandrolon is a substance that is easily traceable since the 1980s and cannot masked either. So experts frowned when they heard this news. Common opinion was that a few options existed.
    • Those players were stupid to use this because it is easily traceable. One of the easiest drugs to test for.
    • Testing in football is underdeveloped and haphazard. Some are caught but others are free to use.
    • The food was poisoned because it was a known fact that the food in Southern countries did and does contain traces of Nandrolon.
    And yes, some thought that it was a conspiracy because their samples had only very small traces of the substance. Interestingly, Guardiola his sample was much more spoiled with the substance.

    Stam, Davids and De Boer defended themselves with the last option of the three: their food contained traces of Nandrolon. This hypothesis was easily testable: daily food in the supermarket indeed had a substantial amount traces of Nandrolon. However, this raised new questions such as: why were other players in Spain never caught? This was answered with the (right) observation that test practices were amateurish and varied in quality, intensity and nature. But if that was the case, why were three Dutch players caught and not an other nation?
    These were questions that contributed to Davids his agent crying on the radio, who said in despair: in contrast to other players in Italy, Davids constrains himself and certainly does not use such a stupid drug as Nandrolon.

    This aside, the argument you use isn't valid. The fact that others tested positive isn't a proof or indicator that Barcelona and Spain don't use. It is widely known that the testing procedures in football are quite amateurish compared with some other sports. Not only with relation to nail down violators but also, and I think more importantly, it is problematic to create a level playing field.

    Some of the biggest drug cheats never tested positive. Juventus was mentioned but also Parma never tested positive. Later on, a video surfaced that showed how Parma players injected EPO and other stuff in the dressing room before a match. You can find this video on youtube. This tells everything about testing in football.
    Athletes of the German Democratic Republic never tested positive either while we now know that they went until and beyond the limit. They started with injecting heavy drugs when the athletes were 12-14 years old.
    Lance Armstrong never tested positive too and we now know why: the system was corrupt as hell and I feel ashamed that the Dutch chairman of the governing body protected that bastard. The chairman had a background in marketing&PR and together with his colleagues he only thought about one thing: selling cycling to other places than continental Europe alone.

    I searched in UEFA documents. Those one don't say that Barcelona was the most tested team. Your sentence "even performing random tests" reveals how backwards football is in this regard; random tests are standard procedure in other sports. It is btw a big joke that only a small minority of all tests in football are out of competition tests.

    Fact is that a certain Villar came into power after the dismal 2002WC. That Villar (but I can equally take another Spaniard) sits on many influential positions. He is the chairman of the referee committee of the FIFA. Within UEFA it is even a bigger joke: he is deputy chairman within the ref committee but is also chairman of the supervisory board. Villar has also a say in organizing committees and financial committees. Basically everything that matters.

    In the past the Spaniards weren't as good and therefore the boards within FIFA and UEFA were dominated by the Italians, Germans and English. Andrew Jennings mentions in his book the situation in 1998:

    Germany - 13 seats in primary comittees
    Argentina - 9 seats
    Brazil, US, Italy, Switzerland - 8 seats

    England was slashed down to 4 seats because they acted a bit too annoying for Blatter his liking. Spain had even less seats.

    Of course, the question is then why other big nations let this happen. Assuming that Spain is the top dog and receive protection, maybe others have an interest in maintaining this football dynasty too.
    I certainly think that others have developed interest in maintaining the Omertà because a scandal would do the game more harm than good from a financial perspective.

    Not without a surprise, that so called paranoid Mourinho also referred to Villar when his team was deprived again. Casillas said against the referee: why don't you join the Barcelona party?

    In Europe this is a different case because players and coaches face match bans if they transgress certain limits. Mourinho himself was banned once just as Wenger. Van Persie faced problems too when he said after the Barcelona game where he was sent off (remember?) "this is a total joke".

    So I'm less than convinced by the argument that not a lot of accusations are made by opponents.

    Whatever is the case, it is just a factual observation that Spaniards sit in many important boards since 2002.

    N.B. this is funny
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...-of-planning-to-bribe-World-Cup-referees.html
  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    You have a point with your second paragraph but other have mentioned here how strong and good Messi+Ronaldo are from a historical perspective. That is simply an element in the debate here. Their historical strength can't be 'proven' either.
    So why are you attacking me for posting this? Indeed, I just wanted to illustrate my feeling just as others mentioned their feeling.
  22. Krokko

    Krokko Member

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    Alberto Aquilani in today's Gazzetta dello Sport. Asked about which players have been his models he answers "Da piccolo Giannini, poi Gerrard. Adesso quelli del Barcellona. Prima tutti giocavano a pallonate, loro hanno fatto vedere che con il bel calcio si può vincere."

    tr: "When I was a kid, Giannini, later Gerrard. Now Barcelona's players. Before them all teams played long balls: they have showed us that you can win titles playing beautiful football."
  23. lanman

    lanman BigSoccer Supporter

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    These records seem to get more and more specialised every time. What's next? Most goals scored on a Tuesday?
    schwuppe and zahzah repped this.
  24. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

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    Nah, there is no difference between days of the week.

    Hulk: Messi deserves to retain Ballon d'Or
  25. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

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    Your last sentence proves you are biased, as no matter what you claim Messi and CR7 are in the same league. CR7 in my opinion obviously had the better season, but claiming Messi and CR7 are miles apart - clueless fanboyism.

    You know when you know something is wrong? If the predominant comment about Messi (this season) is: "Messi had a poor game by his standard" or "Not vintage Messi, but still managed to score". If this happened once or twice this season it can be considered a glitch in form, but if this is game after game... Messi for one has obviously become more selfish as evidenced by his recurring spats with Villa about not giving the ball.

    As for decision-making. Watch the Messi highlights for the Celta Vigo game? Especially with Messi 'dribbling' the keeper. Facepalm worthy.

    You know how I know I'm winning the discussion? By the fact that the only response you have is an attempt to ridicule me. Which is obviously a ploy enacted by someone without arguments.

    Or maybe you guys are just replicating Messi's onfield antics (funnily if CR7 had done the same he would have been lambasted by media and whatnot for being a 'prick')?:

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