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Ballon D'Or 2012 (part 2)

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by comme, Oct 29, 2012.

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  1. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

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    Don't remember ever attacking you over this. To me, any of Busquets, De Rossi and Mascherano are the best DMs in the world in any order...though Mascherano may not have a claim anymore as he's not playing that position.
     


  2. La Magica

    La Magica Member+

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    also Rooney on that list is laughable......how many more times will he be exposed before people realise he is just an ok player. What other top modern day professional footballer turns up to international tournaments in such poor condition, was actually a disgrace to his country and should never have been allowed on the pitch. His name has no reason to appear on that list
     
  3. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

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    So? I'm not blind to the fact that this is a popularity contest. And like it or not CR7 doesn't have as many blind fans as Messi.

    I'm pretty sure CR7 will win the journalist vote, but I expect coaches and especially players to vote with their emotions not their brains.
     
  4. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

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    True.

    which is solely due to the system Messi plays in.

    so? Barca play tiki taka... it means absolutely nothing.

    ok.

    so? CR7 likes to take an audacious shot every once in a while... he still has better efficiency than Messi in the penalty area. A very idiotic stat based argument, which means nothing.

    Absolutely not true. Messi leads La Liga in turnovers.

    And CR7 has more accurate crosses... one plays in the center, one on the wing. How exactly do you expect a winger to have more through ball than a player situated in the center...

    A bunch of crap arguments based on idiotic stat based argumentation with little to no forethought.
     


  5. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

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    Ronaldo fan boys cling to stats... :D how absurd... the stat based argument is purely Messi fan boys, led by Bada Bing. People objectively pointing out why CR7 deserves the trophy ahead of Messi point out that CR7 had a better season qualitywise than Messi, which is pretty obvious to anyone with eyes and a bit of honest reason.

    And honestly... stating that their is a light years distance between the two players is just idiotic. I can accept people stating that Messi deserves it more than CR7. But someone saying that their is no contest are just feebleminded.

    My opinion: CR7 clearly had the better season, but Messi has the better fanbase... That's what the whole debate unfortunately boils down to.

    ---

    And why is it that only the Messi side seem to think it necessary to denigrate CR7 and his achievements? That is a sign of someone either totally oblivious to objectivity or someone losing an argument.
     
  6. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member

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    Wow zahzah you really disproved him there. :thumbsup:
     
  7. celito

    celito Member+

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    Why would say so Messi have more blind fans ? Facebook likes Ronaldo with 50M plus Messi with 38M. Looks like Ronaldo is more "liked" :p
     
  8. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

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    Facebook tyranny :) Sorry, but that means bull to me.
    I accept is as a solid counterargument to my point, but if you check out media Messi is the darling, while CR7 is always attacked - both by press and by people commenting news. Messi has nowhere as near aggression directed at him: crowd booing, crude nicknames like Gaynaldo or Penaldo, ridiculing his person and basically presenting him as a twat in media (while in all honesty he seems like a nice and intelligent guys during interviews).
     
  9. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member

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    Maybe it's because of quotes like that:

    "Some fans keep booing and whistling at me because I'm handsome, rich and a great player. They envy me."
    "Maybe they hate me because I'm too good."
    "No one did what I did last season and for this, I deserve the Golden Boot and why not the Best World Player award?"
     
  10. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

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    Cristiano Ronaldo on Messi jibes from Denmark fans: “This time last year, he was out the Copa America.”

    Even when he failed to produce against Germany, had literally to be carried out from the group against Denmark:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Then scored 2 goals against no defense, zero point Holland, and a goal against all mighty Czech. Then failed to hit target from 7 shots against Spain, and chickened out/ tried to glory hunt the penalty kick in the SO. Where as Messi created goal against Uruguay and scored the first penalty in SO.

    People don't hate Cronaldo because what he says, they just love Messi because he's better.
     
  11. celito

    celito Member+

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    Ronal
    Ronaldo is just an easy target. Partially it's is his fault because over the years he has done some things that gave him a bad image. The excessive diving, the wink, the middle finger to Benfica fans, the handsome/rich quote, now this "I am sad" story that he never justified. Another part is because he is obviously vain. I mean ... who goes in at half time with one hairdo and comes back with a different one ? That makes him a very easy target for opposing fans. Plus the fact that he plays to those fans. Whenever provoked by them, he often pays attention to them and responds. To the fans point of view, that means they are getting to him. Fans will often boo only who they thing is good anyways. Now I am not saying Messi is a saint. Far from it. And he is definitely not charismatic like Ronaldinho or Brazilian Ronaldo. But he does seem to care less about what other people think. And I think that shows through to people.

    About the media, maybe they just think Messi is the better player. Why must they be blind ? Why is it hard to believe. I am sure they all think Ronaldo is great, but just believe Messi is a little better. That's not outrageous. Maybe more people appreciate Messi's set of skills more given they are players that are drastically different.
     
  12. Baron Zbimg

    Baron Zbimg Member

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    I'm sorry but I have to point out this couple of points:

    - Messi scored more goals and hit the target more with less shots. That's called efficiency. What you're saying here makes no sense. Basically an off target shot is a wasted possession, that's what it is. Basketball fans understand the concept of advanced stats, efficiency stats which have a high correlation to victory. It's not idiotic at all, it is statistical. The closer from the goal you shoot, the more efficient the shot is. Attempting 4 shots per game outside the box is ALMOST a sure waste of a scoring chance.
    I'm not saying players should never attempt a 20 meters shot, but saying the numbers lie is ... blindness ?

    Messi averages 1.1 turnover per game since the start of the season, Ronaldo 2.3. Javi Guerra leads the league in turnovers with 3.4 per game, then Negredo with 2.9. Ronaldo is fourth worst.
    Last Year Ronaldo was third worst with 2.3 per game, Messi was at 1.6 per game. You can't just claim something when the facts say otherwise.
     
  13. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

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    Agreed about his image. But that's also why the Balon d'Or lost its credibility as an award turning from a fairly objective award into a popularity contest. Likeability shouldn't be a determining factor for such an award and unfortunately at the moment it is.

    BTW Messi is just as stuck up as CR7. He just isn't as vocal about it.

    Actually - if you follow the media then the narrative this year has markedly changed from "Messi is the best" to "Messi and CR7 are the best". Hence I expect a very close vote among journalists with CR7 probably winning it due to more quality performances in big games.

    It's not outrageous to believe that Messi is a little better. I fully accept that and respect such an opinion. But saying that Messi is ions ahead of CR7 is outrageous and any person saying that loses credibility.
     
  14. La Magica

    La Magica Member+

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    One will go down as one of the greatest ever, the other won't even be the greatest of his time.....Ronaldo is power and strength, Messi is pure football. In terms of all around ability there is light years......The only way anyone could argue Ronaldo is in the same league is to use stats, anyone with a good understanding of the game and also good eyesight would see the two dont compare.....If Messi and Ronaldo swapped teams one would add to a team, the other would not fit in, all because of his ego and selfish play......When Ronaldo's physical power wane, he won't stick around at the top to long
     
  15. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

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    Check stats from within the penalty area. CR7 > Messi.

    The rest of your point is absurd at best and won't honour it with a comment.

    Using your basketball example: If one player slam dunks while the other specializes in 3 pointers the second is bound to have a worse conversion rate. Doesn't make the second guy worse than the first.

    Ok. Factor in DISPOSSESSED and suddenly Messi overtakes Ronaldo in lost balls per game.
     
  16. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

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    :alien:

    So we don't overly travel in Neverland please focus on the question at hand: Balon d'Or 2012.
     
  17. La Magica

    La Magica Member+

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    Another thing is Ronaldo over rated dribbling ability, Sure when he has space to power into, but stick hin in a tight space and more times than not he will lose it or try some stepover without actually doing anything. Messi in that time Ronaldo is flamingo dancing in the corner will have skinned 3 or 4 players. Ronaldo is not a team player + he is apparently "sad", that is alone laughable and should make any sane person realise what a despicable character he is to come out with such garbage when most in the world are struggling..He earns more in a week than most could dream of in a years salary
     
  18. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

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    :rolleyes:

    Celito: What were you saying about CR7 haters? Look above for a prime example of Rongressiveness...
     
  19. La Magica

    La Magica Member+

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    Yeah I call a spade a spade si I'm a hater, get your tongue out of his ass although I have a feeling thats where you wish you had it inserted
     
    Pipiolo repped this.
  20. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

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    Look... no one forced you to focus on CR7's sadness and other similarly non-footballing focused idiocies... your the one who ridiculed your own argument with such banter.
     
  21. La Magica

    La Magica Member+

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    You have offered not one single point to disprove any of my footballing points on Ronaldo and I doubt you can
     
  22. Baron Zbimg

    Baron Zbimg Member

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    It's not absurd at all zahzah, I think you have a problem with math. I'm not saying football is about shooting one meter from the goal. It's abeautiful and complex game with a lot of parameters, but the closer you are, the more accurate you are, the higher the conversion rate is. It's a fact. Messi takes more good shots than Ronaldo, hence his better conversion rate.

    A 3 point shot is a highly efficient shot in basketball BTW, because it's worth 3 points, the long two pointer is the worse shot though.
    Scoring of course isn't the only thing that makes a basketball player valuable, and it's the same with football.

    Well, still not, although the difference shrinks, but as you use it as an argument in favour of Ronaldo, it still makes no sense :
    2011 - 2012 : Messi : Dispossessed 2.6 + turnovers 1.6= 4.2
    Ronaldo : 2.1 + 2.3 = 4.4

    this season : Messi : 2.9 + 1.1 = 4
    Ronaldo : 1.9 + 2.3 = 4.2

    You can check the math if you want.
     
  23. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

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    OPTA-statistics says it all really, Messi is superior player all around. Actually I fail to see any part of football where Cronaldo is actually better, or even as good.
     
  24. Baron Zbimg

    Baron Zbimg Member

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    It actually should make it impossible to support the fact that Ronaldo is superior to Messi, but some still try, trying to make the ones who believe the evidence look biased when it's not fanatics. I have love neither for Argentina, nor Barca. I just go with talent, and the facts.
     
  25. ForeverRed

    ForeverRed Moderator Staff Member

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    Khedira is not more defensive minded, he's the box to box player. I get your point though. He's maybe more like Pirlo than Busquets because while he does sit deep his function is also to initiate play whereas Busquets has players around him who do that.
     
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