Ballon D'Or 2012 (part 2)

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by comme, Oct 29, 2012.

  1. ---Z---

    ---Z--- Member+

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    What does that
    Mean? Suarez is a ex Barca player and he is a Spaniard (i.e does not like Portugal)

    You expect him
    To say Ronaldo?

    I should find
    Sir Alex ferguson quotes saying Ronaldo is the best to prove he's the best ...


  2. SupaMario

    SupaMario Member+

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    If Messi wins the award. :ROFLMAO:


    "Man, those awards are stupid, it's only a popularity contest"..
  3. SupaMario

    SupaMario Member+

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    And R9 has said Messi is the best, the same could be said people all over our continent.


    Even Guti, said Messi is above Ronaldo, ex-Madrid and Cristiano teammate. Did he say that because he does not Portugal either?
  4. ---Z---

    ---Z--- Member+

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    This is why they should have a golden gloves award every season to recognize keepers ,
    You can't expect them
    To compete with outfielders especially attackers

    But again, most pundits insist Ronaldo was the player of la liga
    (he won the alfredo Di stefsno award and scored against every team won the league and only had 4 less goals then messi, etc)

    Casillas was not considered the best on Madrid nor on Spain nt (Iniesta )

    Ronaldo had the most well rounded season ,best player of la liga , joint top scorer of euro 2012 (and you can nitpick all you want bottom line is Portugal was closer then ever to another major final losing on penalties)
    And also lost in semi finals in penalties in champions


  5. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member

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    Because Marca. I just provided every possible statistic in the last page about La Liga performance, you just can't say Cronaldo was better, you just can't, because he wasn't even close to Messi, individually.

    [​IMG]

    Those are some stats when you consider that Messi takes less shots, gets less service, scores more individual goals, and helps team more in build up play and with creating goals. The difference of quality is just massive. Cronaldo is actually worse than last year, Messi just gets better every year.
    La Magica repped this.
  6. Dr. Know

    Dr. Know Member+

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    The Di Stefano award? That’s the award given by Marca the Madrid biased paper?
  7. ---Z---

    ---Z--- Member+

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    Your continent? South Americans stick together all the time
    I know many and they always root for their teams against European teams and players
    No matter what

    A German or swiss wont support Ronaldo because he's "European"

    But in Latin America everyone rides each other, and when in doubt ride spainard(check

    Brazilians largely ignore or dislike portuguese
    Same goes for Spain against Portugal
  8. ---Z---

    ---Z--- Member+

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    They given it to messi before

    Goal.com
    Voted
    Ronaldo #1 too
  9. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member

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    Messi & Cronaldo La Liga 2011-2012

    Goals:

    Messi 50 (10 penalty)
    Cronaldo 46 (12 penalty)

    Accuracy:

    Messi 5.5 shots/ goal
    Cronaldo 6.9 shots/ goal

    Individuality of goals:

    Messi, 22/50 or 44% were directly assisted (no involvement in buildup play)
    Cronaldo, 35/46 or 80% were directly assisted (no involvement in buildup play)

    Assists: (transfermarkt.co.uk FIFA rules)

    Messi 20
    Cronaldo 12

    Creativity:

    Messi 56 throughballs, 92 key passes (resulting in a shot)
    Cronaldo 19 throughballs, 60 key passes (resulting in a shot)

    Build up play:

    Messi 176 dribbless
    Cronaldo 73 dribbless

    Lost posession:

    Messi 96 dispossessed + 61 turnovers = 157 times
    Cronaldo 79 dispossessed + 86 turnovers = 165 times

    MoM (whoscored.com)

    Messi 24
    Cronaldo 15

    Importance of stats:

    Here is La Liga 11-12 without Messi's and Cronaldo's goals, and assists:

    [​IMG]

    http://king-football.com/bb/?p=431

    Messi got points for the team in 15 games, 35 overall.
    Cronaldo got points for the team in 11 games, 25 overall.

    Messi & Cronaldo Champions League 11-12

    Goals:

    Messi 14 (4 penalty)
    Cronaldo 10 (2 penalty)

    Accuracy:

    Messi 4.5 shots/goal
    Cronaldo 7.4 shots/goal

    Individuality of goals:

    Messi, 6/14 or 43% were directly assisted (no involvement in buildup play)
    Cronaldo, 4/10 or 40% were directly assisted (no involvement in buildup play)

    Assists (transfermarkt.co.uk wider rules)

    Messi 7
    Cronaldo 3

    Creativity

    Messi 14 throughballs, 32 key passes (resulting a shot)
    Cronaldo 3 throughballs, 25 key passes (resulting a shot)

    Build Up Play

    Messi 44 dribbles
    Cronaldo 29 dribbles

    Lost Possession

    Messi 40 dispossessed + 19 turnovers = 59
    Cronaldo 20 dispossessed + 19 turnovers = 39

    MoM (whoscored.com)

    Messi 8
    Cronaldo 3

    Importance of statistics: (without Messi's and Cronaldo's goals and assists)

    1. Milan 14
    2. Barcelona 10
    3. Plzen 6
    4. BATE 2

    1. Real Madrid 16
    2. Lyon 9
    3. Ajax 8
    4. Dinamo 0

    Messi gave 6 points in 3 group games and would have lost 1st position. Would have lost against Milan.
    Cronaldo gave 2 points in 1 group game. Would have lost against ZSKA.

    Messi against top opposition 11-12

    Real Madrid 3+5@6
    Valencia 4+3@4
    Malaga 6+0@2
    Atletico Madrid 4+1@2
    Milan 3+3@4
    Leverkusen 6+1@2
    Chelsea 0+1@2
    Porto 1+1@1
    Santos 2+0@1

    Overall 29+15@24 against top opposition, 1.83 G+A per game.
    Overall 73+35@60 against everyone, 1.80 G+A per game.

    Cronaldo against top opposition 11-12

    Barcelona 4+0@6
    Valencia 1+0@2
    Malaga 3+1@4
    Atletico Madrid 5+2@2
    Lyon 2+1@2
    Ajax 1+1@1
    Dynamo 0+0@1
    ZSKA 3+0@2
    Bayern Munich 2+1@2

    Overall 21+6@22 against top opposition, 1.23 G+A per game.
    Overall 60+15@55 against everyone, 1.36 G+A per game.

    Messi was actually better against top opposition, Cronaldo unsurprisingly worse. The same applies pretty much in their careers, Cronaldo is a big game flop.

    Players scoring their own penalties 11-12 shows the difference of quality of players and teams in general

    [​IMG]

    - Higuain and Benzema were actually more effective than Cronaldo and were involved in 1.3x goals more than Cronaldo.
    - Messi were carrying Barcelona, and were involved in 1.6x goals more than Xavi and Fabregas together, 1.48x more than Cronaldo.
    - As a team Madrid were better, as a player Messi was far, far ahead of others. And Ballon d'Or is a invidual prize, not a team prize.

    10-11 compared to 11-12

    2010-2011
    Messi: Supercopa, La Liga, Uefa Champions League, Uefa Champions League Top Scorer, 53+28 1.56 (G+A)/90min

    > most definitely

    Cronaldo: Copa Del Rey, La Liga Top Scorer, European Golden Boot, 53+18 or 1.38 (G+A)/90min

    2011-2012
    Messi: Supercopa, Uefa Supercup, Fifa Club World Cup, Copa Del Rey, La Liga Top Scorer, Uefa Champions League Top Scorer/ Top Assister, European Golden Boot/ Top Assister, bunch of records + WR of scoring in one season club and club + international (73 and 82), 73+36 or 1.86 (G+A)/90min and 82+41

    > most definitely

    Cronaldo: La Liga, 60+15 or 1.38 (G+A)/90min and 66+17

    ----------------------------------

    Cronaldo actually was just as effective as last season, but Messi was better in last season, and even better this season.

    2010-2011
    Messi 1.56 (G+A)/90min
    Cronaldo 1.38 (G+A)/90min

    2011-2012
    Messi 1.86 (G+A)/90min
    Cronaldo 1.38 (G+A)/90min

    2012 Stats

    [​IMG]

    Every which way you look, you see Messi's superiority.
  10. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member

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    There is pretty thorough statistical analysis on the players, mostly using OPTA stats. I welcome all to point me where Cronaldo was even close to Messi?
  11. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member

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    So it makes it objective. Gotta love portuguese logic.
  12. celito

    celito Member+

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    :ROFLMAO: at joint top scorer of Euro. With a total of 3 goals ! Nothing to boast about.

    And lost on both SFs PKs partially because of him ... one which he missed the 1st PK putting his team behind and the other where he didn't take it because he chose to go last (his own words). Lucky for him he put them in that position in the 2nd game against Bayern otherwise it would have been disastrous for him. In the SF class with Messi I agree he did come out on top. Messi still had an assist so he didn't not do anything.

    His strong points are obviously the fact that he was incredibly consistent in La Liga (goal scoring) and came up with many clutch goals including Classicos. That I do agree with and is undeniable.

    It will really come down to how much people value Messi's European goal scoring record tally. Add that to his big number of assists and it's something that just cannot be completely ignored just because he only won the CDR.
  13. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member

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    Which Clasico's are you talking about? In Supercopa Messi destroyed RMA single handedly, in Copa Del Rey Messi assisted two, Cronaldo scored two, performance wise Messi was better. In league Messi created a goal in both Clasico's, Cronaldo scored one in the other, performance wise Messi was better.

    All in El Clasico's 11-12

    Messi 3+5@6
    Cronaldo 4+0@6
  14. ---Z---

    ---Z--- Member+

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    Well why wouldn't they be objective?

    Point is Ronaldo has won some awards already for 2011-12 season and has been recognized for it
    So I'm sure he will get a lot of ballon dor votes but not sure if it will be enough to defeat the messi lobby
  15. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member

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    Marca and lol.com awards? Really?

    Onze d'Or which is actually somewhat credible voted Messi already the best this year.
  16. ---Z---

    ---Z--- Member+

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    Well I can't disagree with you here.
    Unlike others you don't resort to bashing Ronaldo just to support messi so I respect your opinions

    Even if I have "Portuguese logic" like bada bing says mr
    Stat box who thinks football is baseball.

    And bada bing of you ask me Ronaldo was better performance wise in the last Classico (2-2) they were
    More or less equal was also Ronaldo better when he scored in camp nou to effectively seal the league title

    In fact Ronaldo performance wise has been very lose even better at times then messi in all recent classics matches if you ask
    Me which is good , because before messi would always clearly come on top which he doesn't anymore

    Although I know the messi lobby will think different
  17. ---Z---

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    Well messi and Ronaldo are both getkbg recognition, that's the point

    The vote will probably be closer than it ever was before between these two

    But still think messi will win but I'll be cautiously optimistic , think Ronaldo might get a lot of journalist votes
  18. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member

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    Not really, Cronaldo isn't getting any better, it's Barca's makeshift defense that is getting worse. Deportivo put 4 goals past Barca in other game, it's not feat anymore to score against Barcelona. In 2-2 both Messi's goals were individual goals without clear service, both Cronaldo's goals were directly assisted 1on1 goals against Valdes.
  19. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

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    In my opinion Pirlo should win it, and it seems he just may.
  20. ---Z---

    ---Z--- Member+

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    And real Madrid has a good defense?

    If pepe goes down , they will be in deep dodoo,
    Their golden boys ramos and Arbeloa etc certainly won't cut it

    Ronaldo scores against Barcelona and he scored against every la liga team last season
    He currently has 4 goals in cl and his team is in a group with city Dortmund and Ajax

    Ronaldo and messi score against any team big or small

    But wait, Ronaldo's goal against city hart should have saved right? And he put 3 against ajax who suck , and one against Dortmund and they lost so who cares.
    Am I right ?
  21. ---Z---

    ---Z--- Member+

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    Lol, if Xavi or Iniesta haven't won than why exactly would pirlo?
  22. tadm123

    tadm123 Member

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    Doesn't Madrid based newspaper "MARCA" give those awards? o_O
  23. condor11

    condor11 Moderator Staff Member

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    nah its gotta be ither Messi or CR7 they are clearly 1 and 2 or 2 and 1

    everybody else is fighting for Bronze
  24. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

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    Agree 100%, if anyone else beside them two winning it would be a disastrous injustice ... and hence FIFA should change the way they vote or choose different voting teams ....

    TOP5 Fighting for Bronze: Iniesta, Falcao , Pirlo, Drogba, and Cassilas

    I would vote for FALCAO #3.. a true and RARE #9 in this ... (weak) era
    ======================================

    look at the list with Balotelli, while missing NEYMAR was already IGNORANT
  25. zahzah

    zahzah BigSoccer Yellow Card

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    No. Messi lost the journalist vote in 2010. Remember? And everyone agrees about 2009 and 2011 Messi Balon d'Or.

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