CCL needs to be downsized.

Discussion in 'CONCACAF Champions League' started by MRschizoid21, Jan 2, 2010.

  1. chec

    chec Member

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    Jack only helps Joe Public but W Connection and Jabloteh have owners and sponsors with some money. A few more of the PFL teams are getting good sponsors. One of them just got a deal with Lotto.


  2. ArsenalMetro

    ArsenalMetro Member+

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    Also, don't forget that Puerto Rico is actually a part of the United States. It isn't its own independent nation.
  3. ja2ny

    ja2ny Member

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    Exactly P.R. uses U.S. currency.
  4. ZeekLTK

    ZeekLTK Member

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    Currency conversion puts those figures at $67,000 for the high end and $22,000 on the low end (assuming those figures are "Jamaican dollars" - which I think it'd have to be, there's no way it costs nearly two million US dollars for one road game on another island)

    I dunno - to me that seems pretty cheap for a football club. They really can't afford that? They couldn't get some sponsors to help pony up the cost? Plus they have home games in the competition too - doesn't that produce any significant revenue? I mean, even if you only charge $10 a ticket and only get 2,000 fans - that's $20,000 right there! If you get 2,500 fans then you made a profit on the event!


  5. ja2ny

    ja2ny Member

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    Easy for you to say. Your country goes around the world raping 3rd world and developing countries for what ever resources they have which also causes corruption in these countries on every level.;)
  6. MetroChile

    MetroChile Member+

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    That's subjective but more importantly, it is irrelevant to what is being discussed here. Negged.
  7. CBusCrew12

    CBusCrew12 Member

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    It doesn't need to be downsized, it needs a higher degree of competitiveness. Mexican teams play reserves, MLS clubs kinda, sorta care and are in pre-season for the first elmination round, Costa Rica's reps have been disappointing, etc..
  8. Unak78

    Unak78 BigSoccer Supporter

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    I can disagree more with the TS. Sounds like the policy of lowering standards and expectations in order to improve a product which is pretty bass ackwards imo.
  9. Unak78

    Unak78 BigSoccer Supporter

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    It doesn't matter when you place the tournament, MLS clubs simply don't care. Perhaps the Canadian clubs care about it a bit more but the American clubs certainly don't. Roster limits and the lack of a reserve league play a big part in this.
  10. superfrantheman

    superfrantheman Red Card

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    puerto rico uses dollar as its currency same as ecuador, but puerto rico is not a country but a nation. to me they should not play more CCL
  11. Unak78

    Unak78 BigSoccer Supporter

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    So by your argument should Wales, Scotland and N. Ireland be barred from UEFA play bc they're technically of a country with the UK and by extention England?
  12. superfrantheman

    superfrantheman Red Card

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    dont forget to add england
  13. elcibernetico24

    elcibernetico24 Member

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    well columbus put their best squad against cruz azul (just because they cant win does not mean they didnt try),dynamo has certainly tried to win the tourney,so that excuse that they dont care is not valid,of course many teams dont care but not all,some do care,even the mexican teams once the ticket to the CWC is in sight they certainly want it.
  14. Unak78

    Unak78 BigSoccer Supporter

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    It isn't as clear cut as that. Consider that Montreal and Puerto Rico have both done much better than any MLS team has done in the current incarnation of this tournament, the CONCACAF Champion's league. How do you explain that our own second division has made deeper runs in the tourney than any team out of own first division if not for lack of interest? Our second division is not better than our first, is it? And they spend perhaps half of what MLS franchises do on rosters. Montreal, at least, clearly had fans who cared more about how well the team performed in it, whereas most MLS clubs who have so far made it into the tournament, barely market it to their fans. If MLS franchises were only losing to Mexican clubs, I could take your argument at face value, but they've struggled against clubs from T&T and Panama who are clearly not on their level talent for talent. This isn't just about Mexico and the US. There are lots of things that cause me to question MLS franchises' level of commitment when CCL comes around.

    MLS franchises clearly lack depth, a result of roster restraints, which obviously make it more difficult to compete against deeper lineups, but they should at least be able to field 2 to 3 teams in the knockout phase of the tournament. As a Mexican club supporter, you may only see the fact that MLS franchises lose to Mexican clubs and interpret my meaning as somehow diminishing the advantages that Mexican clubs currently have over MLS clubs. But that hardly is my case. My case is that there are few clubs out outside of Mexico that should be giving MLS clubs so much trouble, as is regularly the case in this tournament.

    MLS franchises don't only have a problem with losing to Mexican clubs on the road, they also have issues with everyone else. Two seasons ago it was either DC or New England that was dumped out of the competition by Joe Public FC. Now considering that alot of the best Carribean players play abroad or even in MLS, how can you explain that? If they were only losing or struggling against Mexican clubs, then it would be simple to say that it's only talent, but it goes deeper than that.

    Put it this way, say Mexican clubs had the same talent level of MLS clubs but with the same Mexican fanbase, yet they were losing to Joe Public or Arabe Unido. Would you not question your clubs' committment?
  15. elcibernetico24

    elcibernetico24 Member

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    first of all i said some tems do care and some dont,and you were trying to justify the whole mls performance with a simple they dont care.

    is USL in promotion relegation system with MLS ? WHY DO YOU SAY IS YOUR SECOND DIVISION WHEN ITS NOT.

    with your logic i should be questioning why mexican league isnt beating costarican,mls teams 10 or 20 - 0 after all there really is a BIG salary difference beteween mexico and the rest not just an imaginary one.

    the difference in roster salaries beteween mls and some central american and caribean teams/leagues is not that much to say mls should be doing this or that.

    and you cant use the mexican league as an example because the difference beteween mexican league salaries and the rest of concacaf is really abysmal,is not the same as the ilusionay mls problem,mexican teams really have a reason to make a case for it,mls dont,they just use it as an excuse to justify failure.

    by the way mls dont only have problem losing to mexican teams and others on the road but also at home.

    anyways you cant say that all american teams dont care because its not true that was my point (i agree that some dont care but some certainly do,stop with the excuse we lose because noone cares,its getting a little patethic) and you cant go around claiming that your league is better than others, when mls hasnt done NOTHING to prove it,some of us believe in actions rather than words,just because some central american american or caribbean teams play in stadiums with a capacity of 1000 with crappy fields you cant claim you are better than them,YOU HAVE TO BEAT THEM FIRST TO SAY THAT.this isnt AF,baseball,etc that you can say that you have the best league and everybody else is gonna take your word for it,futbol is a true international sport here you have to prove on the field first.
  16. jared9999

    jared9999 Member+

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    mls teams seem to play better in pre-season. They don`t have the pressure of playing for playoff spots in their league and appear to be fresh and ready to go.

    So the excuse should be that they play the group stages in-season:D
  17. Unak78

    Unak78 BigSoccer Supporter

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    USL is our second division because FIFA says it is. Not me, FIFA. Do you know what they spend on rosters? Do you know anything about our second division? The fact of the matter is that they have had better performances than our first division. That isn't right, bottom line. And it's a fact that they don't spend as much money as MLS does on their rosters. You haven't explained why this disparity exists. MLS should be outperforming those clubs.

    It doesn't matter what the disparity is between MLS franchises and the rest of CONCACAF. T&T teams don't even spend close to what MLS clubs spend. So are you trying to say that they are better clubs than MLS teams. Is that what your logic is? Yes you have to prove things on the field, but even the best players from T&T don't play in their leagues, hell alot of them come to MLS or go to other leagues. Player for player they are not better. So what am I supposed to believe when we lose to their teams? This is ridiculous that you keep bringing up the "this isn't baseball" argument. What sport are we talking about here? I have far more family members in Europe and Africa than I do in this country, so I'm pretty sure that I understand the international nature of this sport. MLS teams should be doing better.

    This isn't simply "excuse making" this is an examination of how much we spend on the league, not in comparison to the Mexican league who obviously spends more, but in comparison to most of the rest of CONCACAF. They should be doing better. They should damn well be doing better than USL which is our second division. That is a fact, look it up. Regardless of whether we have promotion or relegation, they play in smaller stadiums, they don't make nearly as much tv money. And while they don't have a cap, they also don't spend as much money. They tend to lose their best players to MLS teams. Is the gap huge? No, but it exists and it is significant enough to make me question things when they have clubs that can fill 55,000 seat stadiums in this tournament and MLS teams can barely get 10,000 fans to see games for their knockout stages. It is an issue when Montreal can post a near undefeated record in the group stages and Puerto Rico can go to something like the quarter or semi-finals in this competition and MLS can't. Can I not claim that MLS is better than USL now? Is that the argument that you're now trying to make?
  18. elcibernetico24

    elcibernetico24 Member

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    well in that case fmf should be winning every single copa libertadores and sudamericana title after all we spend more than anyone in salaries in this continent yet we arent,we have won 1 sudamericana,reached 1 libertadores final and have countless appereances in semifinals in both but we are far from dominating south america.

    no you dont understand the nature of this sport because despise the the performance of your teams you still want to believe you are better than others no matter what,so your logic says for example if you got beaten by a poor guy who learned to fight on the streets desnt counts because you learned karate (or other) at a dojo (or whatever its called) and you should be (in theory) better trained,so everything else is to blame because its imposible for a poor guy to be better trained than me that have more money to do it,you should tell that to brazilians,argentinians,uruguayans.

    there is no such thing as we should be doing this in sports,you either do it or dont do it.
    AND I NEVER SAID ANYTHIN ABOUT USL YOU BROUGHT IT UP FIRST,I CONSIDER MONTREAL AND PUERTO RICO PERFORMANCES TO BE NOTHING MORE THAN A CINDERELLA STORY I HIGHLY DOUBT IT WILL HAPPEN AGAIN,BUT IS NO SECRET TOO THAT MLS HASNT DONE ANYTHING TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS.

    i only say what i see,and i only accept facts.
  19. MRschizoid21

    MRschizoid21 Member

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    I think it will have a higher degree of competitiveness by being downsized. From 2004-2008, MLS teams were able to make the semifinals. Costa Rican teams were making it to the finals and winning. With a group stage added favoring teams with lots of depth, Mexican teams have steamrolled the first 2 years making up 4 of 4 and 3 of 4 of the semifinalists. Plus the fact that the group stage occurs during the MLS playoff push, you get curious results like NE vs. Joe Public and LA vs. PR.

    If not for the usual secret draws (which just so happened to be perfect for avoiding it this time around), we could very well have been looking at 3 of 4 or 4 of 4 again.

    A KO only tournament would reduce the extra games from Aug-Oct from 6-8 down to 2-4.



    A long drawn out tournament with big gaps in quality is lowering the standards, like the system currently in place.
  20. Paul Calixte

    Paul Calixte Member+

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    So doubling the number of Mexican teams in the tournament from 2 to 4 had nothing to do with it?
  21. MRschizoid21

    MRschizoid21 Member

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    The tournament expanded for everyone.
    MLS teams jumped from 2 to 4 with the possibility of 5 and made no progress.
  22. Paul Calixte

    Paul Calixte Member+

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    Yes, but if 1) we're talking about making it to the semifinals and 2) we recognize that FMF > everyone else in CONCACAF, then having to deal with 4 giants instead of 2 (and please, 4 that will go all-out if and when they feel their Club World Cup hopes are on the line) does reduce everyone else's chances of going far in the CCL.
  23. MRschizoid21

    MRschizoid21 Member

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    Which is why I think they seriously need to think about cutting out the group stages completely and simply have a big and RANDOM KO-style tournament.
    With this many teams and a few teams being far superior to everyone else, the luck of the draw should come into play.
  24. CBusCrew12

    CBusCrew12 Member

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    Shrinking the tournament isn't going to make clubs take it seriously. This will only come with a higher degree of competitiveness brought on by an improving MLS and, hopefully, Costa Rican clubs.
  25. MRschizoid21

    MRschizoid21 Member

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    I highly disagree about shrinking in the case of MLS teams. When teams playing in the prelim round decide to opt out by not putting their best foot forward because playing in the group stage is seen as a distraction from the playoff push, I would think that going KO only would cause them to take it more seriously.



    Next, the group stage has not really been taken seriously by many teams other than the horrible teams and the USL teams. It's a drag. But this not about it being taken seriously (except in the case of MLS teams). It's about it being interesting and competitive. A group stage should be done away with.


    Also, they need to stop with the "stadium requirements" being an excuse to pull a team's spot. Give the teams from Belize and Nicaragua their spot. If they have no "suitable" stadiums, make them play one-legged ties. Give them a disadvantage, but don't just take their spots away.

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