Discussion in 'Scotland' started by Catfish, Oct 21, 2005.
Where did these terms come from?
Tims and Hail Hail
Bears and Huns
'Tim' is short for Timalloy which was a gang in the East End of Glasgow.
Bears (or Teddy Bears) is just rhyming slang for 'Gers. Of course it doesn't work if you haven't got a Glasgow accent.
I'm not sure where 'Hun' comes from. I've read it comes from the Royal family's German ancestry. However, Rangers fans used to call Celtic fans 'Huns' too so that blows that theory out of the water. Maybe it just comes from the idea that the Huns were 'the enemy' during the 2 world wars.
Huns, I've always thought, came from Rangers "Germanic" influences. During WWII, Germans were refered to as huns colloquially because of their apparent desire to spread across the land. Lutheranism, and therefore Protestantism, started in Germany, so "hun" seemed like an applicable cheap insult. As Rangers were typified as Protestants, their foreign players were often German as well which served to strengthen the stereotype.
Apologies to the huns if I have mistated any fact--operating from memory here.
As Les has pointed out above, it was Celtic fans who were first referred to as Huns. This was perhaps because of the behaviour of said fans during the Second World War. Parkhead was closed down for a month after after violence during a previous Rangers--Celtic game and according to Old Firm historian Bill Murray, "among the provocations that led to the troubles was the waving of a tricolour flag during the playing of the national anthem, flaunting in the face of Scots engaged in a deadly war the flag of a country that had kept out of it, whose illegal IRA had 'declared war' on Britain before Hitler, and whose leader, de Valera, would make a special visit to the German ambassador in Dublin to express his condolences at the death of Hitler in May 1945."
How Rangers fans came to be called huns is anyone's guess. Of course, it is viewed as a deraogatory term, and the RST successfully campaigned for its removal from mainstream press outlets. While Celtic fans would happily call themselves Tims, no self-respecting Rangers fan would call himself a hun.
Wherever it may have come from and however it was used in the past, "Huns" is used today as a sectarian insult for Protestants.
I'd say it was more used as a derogatory term used for Rangers fans.
As just one example to back up what I'm saying, take this recent piece from The Scotsman:
Sun 28 Aug 2005
Word police spell bad news for e-mail bigots
THOUSANDS of computers in Scotland are having 'bigotry-checkers' installed.
Specialists in some of the nation's top companies have been devising lists of sectarian words, specific to Scotland, which can be screened out by e-mail software before they reach office staff.
Words that will cause e-mails to be bounced back to the sender include such traditional Old Firm terms of abuse as "Hun" and "Fenian".
The move has come in response to fears that office workers in Scottish companies may be vulnerable to sectarian abuse by e-mail from disgruntled members of the public.
What does Fenian mean?
Basically it means - A member of a secret organization, consisting mainly of Irishment, having for its aim the overthrow of English rule in ireland
If your Norn Iron it means tratior
And if you're in the West of Scotland, and an idiot, it can mean Roman Catholic, Celtic fan, IRA-sympathiser, or any combination thereof.
An insightful quote from Colin Glass in Ten Days That Shook Rangers:
"I am one of many Rangers fans and others who do not equate Fenians with Catholics. Fenians, by definition, are committed to the removal of British jurisdiction from both parts of Ireland by violent means. I have friends who are Catholic but none who are Fenians, just as I have no friends who support the PLO, ETA or any other murder gang. Disliking Fenians, some of whom are Protestants, may have nothing to do with football but it is perfectly natural, just like disliking Nazis. The fact that our greatest rivals espouse Fenianism is the link in this case."
Sums it up pretty well for me!
Unfortunately it seems that Celtic fans are a little more confused by the meaning of the word. When Chris Burke came on as a substitute during an Old Firm game at Ibrox two seasons ago he was greeted by a chant, from the Broomloan Road (Celtic) end, of "who's the Fenian in the blue"! A couple of points here:
a) as far as I know, young Burkey, who I believe is a Catholic, is no Fenian. I've never heard him voice his support for the IRA or of his wish that British rule in Northern Ireland comes to an end; and
b) even if we were to believe that Fenian = Catholic, why should such a chant cause us any offence? All Rangers fans ask is that a player gives his all for the shirt. His colour, creed or religion doesn't come into it! I don't think Rangers fans are the ones with the problem when it comes to Catholic players donning the famous blue jersey...
these terms are too terrible to even discuss never mean shout.absolutely no need for them at all.
I'm with the Huns...
You being way too analytical. There are idiot fans on all sides.
I've heard Rangers fans (and others) refer to Aberdeen supporters as "sheep sh@ggers". Perhaps Rangers fans are confused as well - or perhaps they have witnessed said activity between sheep and Aberdonians?
These terms are, of course, often used without specific knowledge as to their truthfulness. Much the same as someone in the US might refer to Sammy Sosa as a "mother f***er" without any specific knowledge as the whether he has actually had relations with his mother.
The religion of Rangers players certainly DID come into the equasion until not too recently. Until Mo Johnston came along Rangers had signed and played virtually no Catholic players in modern times. Alex Ferguson wrote that he was given the cold shoulder at Rangers when it was discovered that his wife was Catholic (horor).
Wait, are you implying that Sosa is not a motherf***er?
Ferguson didn't quite say that. For one thing, the religion of his wife was known from the start. He said a couple of people commented on it but to say that he was generally "given the cold shoulder" because of it doesn't square with what he says in his autobiography.
I believe in "innocent until proven guilty". Until we see the results of the DNA tests we have no idea if Sosa fathered his mothers child.
You are wrong. I've read the book and that is not what SAF had to say:
Managing My Life
From "Willie Allison...in charge of Rangers' public relations had an alarming infuence over Chairman John Lawrence. (I felt) nothing less than piosonous hostility. Allison was religious bigot of the deepest dye. Cathy is Catholic and so were my mother's family. Such facts were sure to count for much in the twisted mind of Allison. He was as dangerous as he was dispicable."
"On the day I was signed for the club, one of the directors, Ian McLaren, asked me about Cathy's religion. When I confirmed she was Catholic, McLaren wanted to know where we had been married. When I told him a registry office he said 'Well thats alright then'."
Despite my scoring record I was eventually "reduced to turning out for the Rangers third team. Yet other clubs were keen to buy me. Paranoia? I don't think so."
Perhaps Sir Alex is making this all up. My father played on the same schoolboy team as SAF. The climate then was indeed poisonous at Rangers. At that time Rangers were keenly interested in religion. They would not have signed or played any Catholic.
Like I said, a couple of people.
So he was put in the third team "eventually"? Why not right away if it was about his wife? He was made a scapegoat for a Cup final defeat to Celtic (If I remember rightly this is also mentioned in his book).
Also, the bit you've quoted backs up my assertion that his wife's religion was known about from the start (in contradiction of your earlier claim that it was "discovered" at some point).
I fear that you Sir, fall into the camp of "defend at all costs". The attitude of the board was clearly despicable and the attitude of their head of public relations was clearly poisonous. Which of those words you don't understand I'll never know.
Rangers refused to field players based of their religion and many in top positions at RFC were admittedly anti Catholic. As a young man my father probably fell into that camp. There is no disputing those facts.
I can't add anything else to this discussion.
I fear that you Sir, fall into the camp of "attack at all costs". You made a false claim about Ferguson's wife's religion being "discovered". You falsely denied my statement that only a couple of individuals made any dubious comment about his wife's religion. The ultimate irony is that you were hoist with your own petard: your own quotes proved you wrong.
LMAO...you mean CORKY!
Hmmmm, can you add anything to the discussion about the Celtic board and it's, umm, lack of Protestants?
Yes I can. Excluding anyone on the basis of their religion is unacceptable to me. I don't care which side of the Old Firm does it - i find it disgusting.
only a couple of individuals made any dubious comment about his wife's religion
Thats like saying "only a couple of my associates as members of the KKK". I don't care which side of the Old Firm it comes from - I find bigotry disgusting.
Separate names with a comma.