News: Civil War in Syria

Discussion in 'International News' started by Mr. Conspiracy, Jul 17, 2012.

  1. Tribune

    Tribune Member

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    I think you missed the point. I admitted that "everything is possible", but I asked (rhetorically) "what is more likely"? A bunch of iranian tourists hiking through Damascus while the sides are trading bombs and bullets or a bunch of iranian "advisors"?
    And the bizarery does not consist only of some deranged individuals going to Damascus. The american hikers were a few and went alone. This was a rather large group and Iran says it included women and children.
    Moreso, I'm not aware of this shrine being such an important one (like the ones from Mecca, Najaf, Karbala or Jerusalem) in order for people to risk life and limb to get there - and their families as well.

    How can you know that if you don't know the name of the shrine?


  2. Tribune

    Tribune Member

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    No, I don't. The Iraq situation I understand, since the shrines at Najaf and Karbala are huge in the shia Islam and the prolonged/persisting nature of the fighting didn't give much options to people who had to fulfill such religious duty, but is this one in Damascus such a big deal?
  3. Mani

    Mani BigSoccer Supporter

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  4. Mani

    Mani BigSoccer Supporter

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    Dude, Zeinab, Ali's Daughter and Mohamad's granddaughter, is a central figure in Shia Islam. She's the second most important female saint in Shia Islam after Fatameh. When the religious families want to make nazr (wish) about the success or healing of a female member of the family facing a challenge in life, they do so, in Zeinab's name, and promise to visit her shrine if the wish is granted.


  5. Anthony

    Anthony Member

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    I would not be surprised they were pilgrims, but at some time in a war zone simple Darwinism must suffice. I am a somewhat religious Catholic from a very religious Catholic family. I have been toTheChurchof theHoly Sepulchre in Jerusalem by myself, but only because I was on a business trip to Tel Aviv. I would like to bring my children there and to the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, but I will wait in hope of a peace agreement someday between the Palestinians and Israelis. When I felt the need to take my children on a pilgrimage, I took them to Rome for Easter. Before I head back to the US I will probably also take them to Walsingham. I realise that taking my children to a war zone, even if it is not exactly a hot war right now, is a bad idea.

    At some point, maybe someone in Iran should realise that going on pilgrimage in a war zone is a bad idea.
  6. Mani

    Mani BigSoccer Supporter

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    The government ha suspended all pilgrimage programs for Syria and Iraq for a long time now. Some ultra-religious people are stupid though, they still hire private tours and go to these places at bad times. Not much anyone can do, short of forcing them not to go, which would then create other issues.
  7. ceezmad

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    4 sure, stupid people do stupid shit, like the Korean Christians going to Afghanistan to convert Muslims to Christianity, and then bitching up a storm when the Taliban rounds them up.

    I do not remember what happened to them at the end, I assume they were ransomed or killed.
  8. Mani

    Mani BigSoccer Supporter

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    The Wahabi terrorists have murdered 3 of the 48 kidnapped Iranians. From the comments I read on the Iranian websites, everyone is outraged in Iran, even those who are sympathetic to Syrian opposition. So now there will be a lot of pressure on the Iranian government to take action.
  9. Mr. Conspiracy

    Mr. Conspiracy Member

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    Like I said I think Iran has the right to take action to protect their people. That said, I feel that the level of response that Iran takes will determine what will happen next. If a large Iranian force heads towards Syria I can see major problems coming. Simply because I think Israel will react very strongly to any Iranian military presence in Syria. Espeically in light of the current Nuclear issue going on. Plus I would ask how any Iranian force will get to Syria and will they communicate to the US their intentions given the US Naval and Military forces in the area that may think it is an attack on them by Iran.
  10. Iranianfootie

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    Actually, I read something from STRATFOR that Israel would be a likely loser if Syria falls apart. If Assad restrained Hezbollah/Hamas, Israel would have no problem with the Assads running Syria. I doubt the Israelis will do much if Iran enters Syria based on protecting pilgrims. Israel would react very strongly to a massive Iranian buildup in Syria and being deployed to the Syria-Israel border. If not, I don't see Israel doing much.

    I think you will see a HUGE response from the GCC however (the GCC wants Assad to fall and would possibly use that as a casus belli). Of course the GCC can enter a "sovereign" country called Bahrain however. The GCC said it entered Bahrain because Bahrain called on it to do do to prevent a revolution. I wonder if Iran says hey Syria called on us to intervene to prevent a revolution.

    As far as the US, that is why a "hotline" proposed by Admiral Mullen last year was a great idea. Tehran rejected though.
  11. Iranianfootie

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    Erm, I agree with you IM that Iran under any government should foremost care about her own national interests and sovereignty (this is true for ANY country actually under the current international order). But as you said, the motivating force is "Islamic unity" and NOT Iranian interests. Islamic unity supercedes Iranian interests. Or at the very best, it sees Islamic interests as completely identical to Iranian interests.

    < Better to fight these Taliban-like armed thugs in Syria now so young Iranians won't have to fight them on the streets of Tehran later> SOUNDS VERY VERY close to George W Bush's " better to fight the terrorists OVER THERE so young Americans won't have to fight them on the streets of New York later.>
  12. Mani

    Mani BigSoccer Supporter

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    Bush was actually right with his rational, the only problem was that he invaded the wrong country. He should had invaded Saudi Arabia.
  13. Iranianfootie

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    True. Good luck with that though. BTW, I agree with you re: what Iran should do. But that is NOT what the IRI will do. The mantra of the IRI is that "we are all Muslims".
  14. Naughtius Maximus

    Naughtius Maximus Member+

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    It can also be argued it's not particularly likely that, if they were Iranian military personnel they'd be carrying cards to prove it just in case they were picked up but, tbh, I think you're missing the point... how do we KNOW there is 50 of them, (including women and children), and they were waiting for a bus at a shrine?.... because Assad and his Iranian backers are telling us, that's how. This is the problem atm, everyone is full of such utter crap out there it's impossible to know WHAT'S going on.

    Of course, if the Iranians/Syrians ARE cooking up an incident as a pretence for an extended military conflict they'd do well to check their history books and remind themselves what happened when the USA did the same thing some years in the second 'ghost' Gulf of Tonkin incident.

    Just remind me how that worked out again?

    Like the old saying has it, be careful what you wish for!
    Mr. Conspiracy repped this.
  15. Iranianfootie

    Iranianfootie Member

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    What happened to the British Empire mate?
  16. Naughtius Maximus

    Naughtius Maximus Member+

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    Gave it up... a bit like one of those gas-guzzler cars, it was getting too expensive to run :D

    Not sure WTF's that got to do with anything though :confused:

    Oh, hang on, unless you're saying the Iranians are giving up their Islamic 'empire' before it's even begun?

    If so, good move IMO. Genuinely... they're an awful lot of trouble. Even on those, (probably rare), occasions you start off with the best of intentions, the people receiving your 'help', ((I'm using the word in it's widest possible meaning), end up hating you and the ones you intend to shaft REALLY hate you. Best not to get started along that route.

    Unfortunately the yanks are still locked into the idea of 'helping' people towards 'freedom and democracy'. Personally I preferred our phrase of 'the white man's burden' as it scans better but, hey, that's just me :)

    Of course, 'freedom and democracy', ((c) McDonalds, I believe but maybe there should be a 'Mac' in front of the phrase in that case), is a fine plan in theory but, unfortunately, it too often means the 'freedom' of their giant corporations to grab a slice of the recipient countries assets and the 'democracy' is that of letting the recipient countries rich elite convince their poor that's it's really, REALLY in their interest to let it happen.

    To wit...

    http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...he-imf-itself-should-be-on-trial-2292270.html

    So when in 2001 the IMF found out the Malawian government had built up large stockpiles of grain in case there was a crop failure, they ordered them to sell it off to private companies at once. They told Malawi to get their priorities straight by using the proceeds to pay off a loan from a large bank the IMF had told them to take out in the first place, at a 56 per cent annual rate of interest. The Malawian president protested and said this was dangerous. But he had little choice. The grain was sold. The banks were paid.

    The next year, the crops failed. The Malawian government had almost nothing to hand out. The starving population was reduced to eating the bark off the trees, and any rats they could capture. The BBC described it as Malawi’s “worst ever famine.” There had been a much worse crop failure in 1991-2, but there was no famine because then the government had grain stocks to distribute. So at least a thousand innocent people starved to death.

    Also...

    http://www.stwr.org/imf-world-bank-trade/decommissioning-the-imf-world-bank-and-wto.html

    Of course, in your new 'Islamic' empire it wouldn't be anything as sordid as simple greed and corruption... heavens no, (no pun intended). Decisions would be made on a purely 'Islamic' basis for the benefit of 'the true Islam', AKA, whatever the the hell the latest mad mullah SAYS is the 'true islam', and if you don't like it, tough shit mate. You can't even vote the bugger out as he chooses which candidate is 'Islamic enough'. Purely for your own benefit, obviously :)

    Yeah, the more I think about it the more I think you should use an amended version of our 'the white man's burden' motto for your Islamic Empire. My suggestion would 'the Islamic man's burden' but maybe that's a bit TOO derivative? Still, if you like it, take it.... ENJOY!

    Of course, you could always let the people vote for whoever they want in both your own elections and those in Syria. That might be a jolly wheeze if nothing else :)

    As I've tried to explain to IM on several occasions, I doubt they'd vote for someone I'd find acceptable, (I'd vote for a left wing socialist), and, you never know, they might vote for someone who'd do a better job. Y'know, wouldn't rig the vote, would do things for the benefit of the people inside the country instead of just to piss off someone OUTSIDE the country to bolster their own 'street cred' among their deranged followers inside it? That kinda thing?

    Unfortunately IM, despite what he clearly thinks of himself, isn't the sharpest tool in the box and hasn't come to the same realisations I have but then, I AM the sharpest tool in the box ;)
  17. Naughtius Maximus

    Naughtius Maximus Member+

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    BTW the above is my attempt to get IM to refer me as 'pugnacious' again. For some reason I find that immensely satisfying :)
  18. JBigjake

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    Linked article, with the video in question:
    http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/08/05/230496.html
    If that is the case, let's hope that the man can convince his captors of this. No mention whether the other 30+ men in the video (which would indicate that the majority of the 48 were not women and children) carried similar documents. Here, in the US, people do not cary their DD-214 or Certificate of Honorable Discharge around with them.
    http://www.touchstoneresearchgroup.com/catalog/images/dd214-sample-form-lg.jpg
    http://www.military-certificates.com/AR-HDD.png
    Meanwhile, confusion abounds:
    http://www.tehrantimes.com/politics...anian-pilgrims-abductedin-syria-killed-report
    http://www.haaretz.com/news/several-killed-in-blast-on-iranian-pilgrims-bus-in-syria-1.2890
  19. Naughtius Maximus

    Naughtius Maximus Member+

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  20. JBigjake

    JBigjake Member+

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    So, your preference is to link to an article about the article you ridicule ... :rolleyes:
  21. JBigjake

    JBigjake Member+

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  22. Naughtius Maximus

    Naughtius Maximus Member+

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    Hey, I'm not having a go at you mate. I'm just saying they're just articles with bits of film/pictures which may be proof of something but, equally, might not be.

    That's all! :)
  23. JBigjake

    JBigjake Member+

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    Much like news reports in Iran suggesting the rebels killed pilgrims, when reports from Israel indicate that government shelling may have killed them, or an accident might have done so.
    But, who can trust the Jews, anyway?
  24. Naughtius Maximus

    Naughtius Maximus Member+

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    Er... OK! :confused:
  25. Iranianfootie

    Iranianfootie Member

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    According to the US/Israel, Iran already has an empire from Iran until Lebanon (Syria, Lebanon, Gaza). Don't worry, youll love the Iranian Empire. I aske because the US isn't good at running empires. It could use soem help from the British.

    Iran's empire is justting getting started.

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