News: Copa Argentina Discussion (R)

Discussion in 'Argentina: Clubs' started by Andrés_, Oct 15, 2010.

  1. Andrés_

    Andrés_ Member

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    And so the thing may be happening. There've been talks about this for a couple of years now, but it seems it may be happening next year. The idea is that the cup is played between February and October/November, incluiding all the teams from the different divisions, supposedly it was going to begin in 2009 and finish in 2010, possibly with the final being played on May 25th to celebrate the Bicentenario, Grondona himself claimed the idea existed, but complications with scheduling didn't make it possible. Some also tie this cup with the likely return of "long tournaments", and some go as far as claiming that how would each round be played is already decided.

    Now you are probably wondering "Return? Did such a thing exist before?", well yes it did the Argentine Cup had two editions, in 1969 and 1970, the one in 1970, went as far as playing the first leg of the final(San Lorenzo and Vélez tied 2-2), but the return leg was never played, thus declared "deserted", the 1969 one was won by Boca Juniors, the winner would qualify to the old Recopa Sudamericana(Unrelated to the present competition of the same name), as Boca had already qualified to the Libertadores, the runner-up Atlanta qualified to the Recopa instead. This is how the 1969 edition was played(River, Vélez and Estudiantes were excluded due international duties):

    Round of 32
    CA Atlanta vs. CA Central Norte
    -1st leg: 0-1; 2nd leg: 3-0; Aggr.: 3-1

    ACD Altos Hornos Zapla vs. Club Almagro
    -1st leg: 2-2; 2nd leg: 1-0; Aggr.: 3-2

    CA San Lorenzo de Almagro vs. CA Américo Tesorieri
    -1st leg: 5-0; 2nd leg: 3-1; Aggr.: 8-1

    AA Argentinos Juniors vs. CS Belgrano
    -1st leg: 1-0; 2nd leg: 1-1; Aggr.: 2-1

    CA Lanús vs. Lipton FC
    -1st leg: 4-1; 2nd leg: 5-3; Aggr.: 9-4

    CD Guarani Antonio Franco vs. Gimnasia LP
    -1st leg: 2-0; 2nd leg: 4-4; Aggr.: 6-4

    CA Rosario Central vs. Quilmes AC
    -1st leg: 3-2; 2nd leg: 4-0; Aggr.: 7-2

    CA Newell's Old Boys vs. CA Banfield
    -1st leg: 0-1; 2nd leg: 3-1; Aggr.: 3-2

    CA Colón vs. CD Morón
    -1st leg: 1-1; 2nd leg: 3-2; Aggr.: 4-3

    CA Independiente vs. CA Unión
    -1st leg: 4-2; 2nd leg: 1-1; Aggr.: 5-3

    CA Huracán vs. CA Sporting de Punta Alta
    -1st leg: 2-1; 2nd leg: 1-1; Aggr.: 3-2

    CA Platense vs. CA All Boys
    -1st leg: 1-0; 2nd leg: 1-0: Aggr.: 2-0

    CA Boca Juniors vs. CA Tucumán
    -1st leg: 3-2; 2nd leg: 0-0; Aggr.: 3-2

    CA Sarmiento* vs. CA Los Andes
    -1st leg: 2-0; 2nd leg: 0-1; Aggr.: 2-1

    CA Chacarita Juniors vs. CD Godoy Cruz Antonio Tomba
    1st leg: 3-1; 2nd leg: 0-1; Aggr.: 3-2

    Racing Club vs. CA Los Andes(SJ)**
    1st leg: 2-1; 2nd leg: 1-1; Aggr.: 3-2

    Round of 16
    CA Atlanta vs. ACD Altos Hornos Zapla
    -1st leg: 3-0; 2nd leg: 2-1; Aggr.: 5-1

    CA San Lorenzo de Almagro vs. AA Argentinos Juniors
    -1st leg: 1-0; 2nd leg: 3-0; Aggr.: 4-0

    CA Lanús vs. CD Guarani Antonio Franco
    -1st leg: 4-0; 2nd leg: 3-4; Aggr.: 7-4

    CA Rosario Central vs. CA Newell's Old Boys
    -1st leg: 0-0; 2nd leg: 3-2; Aggr.: 3-2

    CA Colón vs. CA Independiente
    -1st leg: 1-3; 2nd leg: 5-1; Aggr.: 6-4

    CA Huracán vs. CA Platense
    -1st leg: 2-4; 2nd leg: 3-0; Aggr.: 5-4

    CA Boca Juniors vs. CA Sarmiento*
    -1st leg: 3-1; 2nd leg: 4-2; Aggr.: 7-3

    CA Chacarita Juniors vs. Racing Club
    -1st leg: 3-1; 2nd leg: 2-2; Aggr.: 5-3

    Quarter Finals
    CA Atlanta vs. CA San Lorenzo de Almagro
    -1st leg: 3-0; 2nd leg: 2-1; Aggr.: 5-1

    CA Rosario Central vs. CA Lanús
    -1st leg: 2-0; 2nd leg: 3-1; Aggr.: 5-1

    CA Colón vs. CA Huracán
    -1st leg: 1-0; 2nd leg: 2-3; Aggr.: 3-3-PK: 3-2

    CA Boca Juniors vs. CA Chacarita Juniors
    -1st leg: 0-1; 2nd leg: 3-1; Aggr.: 3-2

    Semi Finals
    CA Atlanta vs. CA Rosario Central
    -1st leg: 2-1; 2nd leg: 2-1; Aggr.: 4-2

    CA Boca Juniors vs. CA Colón
    -1st leg: 5-0; 2nd leg: 1-0; Aggr.: 6-0

    Final
    CA Boca Juniors vs. CA Atlanta
    -1st leg: 3-1; 2nd leg: 0-1; Aggr.: 3-2

    Of course today the tournament would likely have notable differences, for one the old one consisted of 32 teams, mixing first and second division ones, today we're talking of over 150 teams, unlike it was back then the first division sides would enter on later rounds, also it's strange the scheduling for the cup since it doesn't seem to match the league season, and also the winner of this compeition would qualify to the Libertadores. An interesting thing is that a competition with the same name already exists in Argentina which is the Argentine Cup of Basketball(Which involves teams of the LNB and the TNA, the first and second division of Basketball respectively).

    In my opinion there're certain issues with the possibility of this cup being played again:
    1- The main problem is that i don't think the cup should thought of being played again until the international cups schedule is rearranged(if such ever happens) because as it is the schedule is quite congested as it is right now for first division sides.
    2- If such thing is solved, to further avoid schedule congestion, they should play single leg matches instead of two legged matches like in the past(as of yet i'm unaware what's AFA planning on this sense).
    3- Either way the schedule doesn't look fine, it should fit the league season calendar.
    4- Like bringing back long tournaments bringing this to me isn't far from being smoke, i believe the biggest change that should be addressed is removing the retarded branching that exists from the Third Division to the bottom.

    *: This Club Atlético Sarmiento is from La Banda, Santiago Del Estero, shouldn't be confused with the club of the same name from Junín, Buenos Aires.
    **: The Club Atlético Los Andes from San Juan, shouldn't be confused with the one from Lomas de Zámora, Buenos Aires, though both played on this competition.


  2. msi2

    msi2 Member

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    Re: Return of the Argentine Cup?

    They are going to do the Argentine Cup but keeping the short tournaments as they are currently? :confused:
  3. argentine soccer fan

    argentine soccer fan Moderator Staff Member

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    Re: Return of the Argentine Cup?

    They do it in Europe and Brazil and I think it's cool. Sometimes a small lower division team can get hot and upset top teams.

    But yeah, they'd have to fix the schedule for it to work.
  4. leomessi1919

    leomessi1919 New Member

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    Re: Return of the Argentine Cup?

    would the winner of the cup get a spot in the libertadores, as happens in brasil?


  5. la saeta rubia

    la saeta rubia Member

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    Re: Return of the Argentine Cup?

    It looks likely that the Copa Argentina winner will get a Libertadores place.The long tournaments are returning.The only reason for delay is to sort out the descenso which is based over three years so they are looking at a situation where this can be arrived at on alevel playing field.So we probably will have to wait three years for to return to long tournaments but the Copa Argentina could begin in 2011
  6. johnie1

    johnie1 Member

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    Re: Return of the Argentine Cup?

    If the are looking to sort the relegation issue, will they do the same with the libertadores places allocation as well?
  7. argentine soccer fan

    argentine soccer fan Moderator Staff Member

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    Re: Return of the Argentine Cup?

    The Libertadores allocation would basically take care of itself, if they go to the long tournaments. All they are doing now is combining the results of the two short tournaments, as well as allocating spots to the two champions, regardless of their combined totals.

    So, the only change would be giving one spot to the winner of this cup.
  8. Andrés_

    Andrés_ Member

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    Re: Return of the Argentine Cup?

    I too believe that this may be the imminent return of long tournaments.

    Yes, not just in Brazil, but also in Chile, Colombia and Venezuela, though in Brazil the teams get to play based on state championship results. However it would be interesting how the media would handle first division clubs losing to lower division sides, it happens occasionally in here, but obviously only in friendlies. In 1970 when the cup had the finalists but was never completed, a club which today still exists but is pretty much forgotten and at the time was pretty much unknown called Club Atlético All Boys(Not the one in the first division right now, this is from Santa Rosa, La Pampa of all places) went as far as the semi-final.

    As far as I know that's the idea.

    Maybe, but according Meiszner the removal of the averages could take a while longer than the return of long tournaments. For the Libertadores, well regardless of whatever the hell CONMEBOL wants to do with it, they should be based on the season campaigns like it was in the past, the current set up makes even less sense(also the cup winner).
  9. msi2

    msi2 Member

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    Re: Return of the Argentine Cup?

    Ok, seems like long tournaments will finally return.
    When will they exactly?
  10. Andrés_

    Andrés_ Member

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    Re: Return of the Argentine Cup?

    Next season.
  11. msi2

    msi2 Member

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    Re: Return of the Argentine Cup?


    February 2011??
  12. Andrés_

    Andrés_ Member

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    Re: Return of the Argentine Cup?

    No, when next season begins in August.
  13. msi2

    msi2 Member

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    Re: Return of the Argentine Cup?

    Ah well... They are following the european schedule. Well better than nothing I guess.
  14. Andrés_

    Andrés_ Member

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    Re: Return of the Argentine Cup?

    Actually we've been doing that for some decades now, the difference is that we have two tournaments, that calendar was adopted before the short tournaments came to existance(for a better reference take into consideration promotions and relegations, or the 2nd division tournament which uses the same format with a single tournament)
  15. Arthur V

    Arthur V Member

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    Re: Return of the Argentine Cup?

    Which one do you guys like best? Long tournaments or the Apertura/Clausura?
  16. NYC_COSMOS

    NYC_COSMOS BigSoccer Supporter

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    Re: Return of the Argentine Cup?

    I like the short tournaments, it makes it way more interesting. A long tournament with a break makes it seems weird.
  17. msi2

    msi2 Member

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    Re: Return of the Argentine Cup?

    Well looks like Grondona is staying with short torneos!!!! :mad::mad:

    FFS, do something right for once viejo sorete! :mad:
  18. NYC_COSMOS

    NYC_COSMOS BigSoccer Supporter

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    Re: Return of the Argentine Cup?

    Link?
  19. Andrés_

    Andrés_ Member

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    Re: Return of the Argentine Cup?

    As far as i know, there're off-the-record sayings that at least 15 presidents of the 20 first division clubs oppose to long tournaments, but either way it seems they at least would change the qualifying for the cups going back to using the season table for the Libertadores again, because it seems that the Libertadores and the Sudamericana will change their schedule making impossible for a team taking part in both competitions, which makes sense because this coincides with a rumour i heard weeks ago about possible changes in the international cups. However nobody from AFA came out to say anything officially so everything is on the air yet, sooner or later if there's any kind of change they'll come out announcing it.
  20. NYC_COSMOS

    NYC_COSMOS BigSoccer Supporter

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    Re: Return of the Argentine Cup?

    Gracias!:D
  21. Andrés_

    Andrés_ Member

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    Re: Return of the Argentine Cup?

    At last somebody came out saying anything: http://www.telam.com.ar/vernota.php?tipo=N&idPub=207868&id=394690&dis=1&sec=1

    While he doesn't confirm anything, he throws down the versions that he was the one that was pushing back for long tournaments while the vast majority of the clubs oppose, still we'll more likely find what the clubs really think sooner or later. If the short tournaments stay more likely the cup won't return.
  22. Andrés_

    Andrés_ Member

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    Re: Return of the Argentine Cup?

    Well it's closer apparently.

    http://playfutbol.infobae.com/notas...n-los-clubes-de-todas-las-categorias-del-pais

    So the most important stuff to take note:

    -It'd involve the 154 teams of the top 4 divisions.
    -The first division sides would enter on the round of 32.
    -Until the round of 32 the rounds will consist of single leg matches.
    -Between the round of 32 and the semi-final the rounds will consist of two legged matches.
    -The final will be at a neutral place.

    Overall okay, I still think that they have to push to modify the schedule of the CONMEBOL competitions and that all the rounds should be a single leg.
  23. Andrés_

    Andrés_ Member

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    Re: Return of the Argentine Cup?

    Well looks like it's happening: http://www.tycsports.com/notas/62446-la-copa-argentina-empieza-tomar-forma

    So more details on it

    -It would begin on August and finish in December...:confused: Doesn't seem likely too many matches to be finished that early. But at least that it begins in August makes sense.
    -On the first stage it'll be just the third and fourth division sides.
    -The second divisions sides join later.
    -The 20 first division sides join with remaining 12 of the previous rounds.
    -The winner qualifies to the Sudamericana.
  24. NYC_COSMOS

    NYC_COSMOS BigSoccer Supporter

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    Re: Return of the Argentine Cup?


    It's about time! This is something that was needed in Argentine Futbol for years. Well at least since Grondona destroyed it the last time.
  25. argentine soccer fan

    argentine soccer fan Moderator Staff Member

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    Re: Return of the Argentine Cup?

    If it works out, this will be a very good thing for small teams and especially teams and fans from the smaller provinces.

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