Douglas. For Oranje?

Discussion in 'The Netherlands' started by richsavare, Mar 11, 2012.

  1. richsavare

    richsavare Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2003
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Country:
    Netherlands
    Heard rumors about this. Is there any chance and if so will it be worthwhile? Thoughts, opinions, and any facts please.


  2. Orange14

    Orange14 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2007
    Location:
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Country:
    Netherlands
    It was discussed some time ago and there is no way that he get's UEFA permission for this summer's Euro Tourney. With several good young defenders coming up (Bruma, Gouwelaar) it's not likely that he will be on the 2014 selection.
  3. johan neeskens

    johan neeskens Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2004
    Meanwhile Frank de Boer said last week that he sees Douglas as ideal replacement for Vertonghen....
  4. johan neeskens

    johan neeskens Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2004
    The Dutch FA helped him to get through the procedure of getting a Dutch passport and he's in regular contact with Bert van Marwijk. Conclude from that what you will.

    My personal opinion in this is that I hope Douglas will change his mind and won't play for Holland. Not because I don't think he's good enough (defensively he's a class above all other Dutch defenders already) but because of all the xenophobic crap he's had to endure.

    He'll likely move to the premiership in the christmas transfer window at the end of the year.


  5. JC-14

    JC-14 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2010
    Location:
    Amsterdam
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Country:
    Netherlands
    He's had to endure so much xenophobic crap it's amazing he's still willing to live in this country at all!! /sarcasm
  6. johan neeskens

    johan neeskens Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2004
    He won't be living in this country for much longer that's for certain.

    And while he continues his international career and says no to Holland (which I believe he will and rightly so) all the oranje supporters will love to see Matthijsen retiring and Vlaar replacing him, I'm sure. Vlaar's crap but at least he's a 100% Dutch! Or better still, Bruma. The turning speed of a 200 tonne lorry but hey, he's great going forward, and we're Dutch so we don't care about whether a defender can actually defend, and at least Bruma is 100% Dutch even if he's never spent a single day of his life in Dutch professional football!
  7. JC-14

    JC-14 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2010
    Location:
    Amsterdam
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Country:
    Netherlands
    I think this thread is better off locked. Some people clearly are unable to make a rational argument. Pretty much everything has been said already. If you want to read some properly constructed arguments I advice to find some of DRB's posts about this subject.
  8. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2007
    Country:
    Netherlands
    Examples or did not happen. Also add to that research Dutch society being more xenophobe than the world in general. If you can't, your argument fails ones again. Also give me quotes of Douglas, how those have effected him. I want you to give me an interview where Douglas talks about all these xenophobic cases.

    All in all, you have some work to do.

    Fact is Twente is a colonialist club of people, that is out there to plunder other nations from their athletic elite. Douglas is not a person sitting at a desk of anti discrimination support. He is part of the 1%, cheered on by thousands every 2 weeks, sitting in a villa with multiple cars in front of it. He is not the victim you want him to portrait him as. You wan't to cut away his roots and the country where the ability's where honed to become what he has become. No Brazil? No Douglas the footballer. No Twente? Many other clubs he could work at. You are sitting with your dad in a skybox enjoying yourself of children, ripped out the country's they were brought up and have their family structure, but were lured away by the money your club had to offer, benefiting from world inequality and what club football has come to. He was just one of the guys that were on one of the hundreds of DVD's send to your child players trafficking club. How romantic? Now you have the diabolical plan by assimilating them for your own NT. It's not enough to misuse the world inequality, by setting up plans with the richest club in the world: Manchester United, circumventing transfer payments. You also want to move into the realm of outrages dishonesty by shining with the elite of other nations as if they are results of the Dutch nurturing system. It's a new system invented to profit from other nations. Again, like the Dutch have done before. Apparently the superiority complex runs deep with certain people, that they still think they can take what they want from the -in their opinion- lessor regions. There is nothing inferior to play for the Brazilian NT Neeskens, but you seem to think so.

    It's disgusting. Almost as disgusting as selling it to people who shake their head in disbelieve as being it xenophobe otherwise. Using the post WW 2 European sensibility's to your own clubs financial advantage an by that showing no respect for the casualty's of that day and age. The second he puts on an Orange shirt, Twente can ask 25% more for Douglas. There are people with higher morals than money alone and have a sense of what the FIFA nation vs nation setup should be about and are not willing to sell out to it, unlike you.

    Before this facade was created by you, I have you down on saying you only care for Brama and the board. The rest are just mercenary's. I have seen how you talked about Janssen when he went to Ajax. Your opinion concerning Douglas all of the sudden changed when you understood, money could be made out of this and could benefit your club. Douglas was all of the sudden more important than the whole NT combined. Don't say you didn't, because I can go back and put that quote down here. I think we have reached a new low points with you.
  9. johan neeskens

    johan neeskens Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2004
    The fact is that after Heitinga and Matthijsen Douglas is by far the most established Dutch central defender on the European club level. He's also played a lot more first team football than Heitinga and Matthijsen this season, by the by. That's not me arguing, those are facts.

    Again if some of you believe that Vlaar and Bruma are more suited as a backup to Heitinga and Matthijsen, fine by me. I'm just saying that I highly doubt your opinion is based on anything football related.

    And again again, there is nothing I would like to see more than Douglas seeing no to oranje and then having a fabulous career in the premiership. How I'll laugh.
  10. Belgian guy

    Belgian guy Member+

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2002
    Location:
    Belgium
    Club:
    Club Brugge KV
    You'd have plenty of decent CBs if not for 1830. :D
  11. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2007
    Country:
    Netherlands
    Exactly, you think your club is 1000 times more important than the NT and will do anything to advance it's position at the cost of the idea of the NT. You will even laugh at it.
  12. johan neeskens

    johan neeskens Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2004
    Of course I think my club is far more important!!!! Does that change anything about the fact that Douglas is our third most established Dutch central defender currently on the planet though? No it does not.

    The sheer fact that some people would even prefer Gouweleeuw to Douglas, now that tells a story.
  13. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2007
    Country:
    Netherlands
    Yes that would be silly:

    [​IMG]

    Made another goal this weekend and made the best pass I have seen from a CD in the last months when he played for Holland under 21, cutting trough defence, if not for the poor finishing letting him down from his fellow team member against Scotland. One thing is for sure. Douglas will never be able to give those on a consistent basis. So it's football v more defensive solidness. An eternal debate, like it will always be a debate in the future. In any case, again not what you make of it. As of yet, he also hasn't showed the trademark of being provoked in a simple way, like the high level strikers are experts in. Like on NT level? Like in an important game they want to win? Like playing against 10 Dutch NT players in a WC quarter final would be awesome than face 11 of them? You get what I am saying?

    The only story to take from this thread is that in this country, there are still pockets of people, that try to benefit from poorer regions in the world and think they can rule the world from their sky box. Equality is not something you preach, but something you practice in everyday live. If you get that twinkling feeling inside Neeskens of how this and that situation can be played out in your own interest, then you also have to ask yourself, if it would be decent and in line with the higher morals of fair play. Depriving country's from their intellectual elite or their athletic elite in this case is pure colonialist self interest again. I thought we were past this kind of thinking. I also thought we had accepted that playing for another NT (the Brazilian in this case) is not something to be looked down on. You want to portray it as punishment, (banter aside) I see it as an honour as well.
  14. johan neeskens

    johan neeskens Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2004
    Let me get this straight DRB. You would rather call up a player on the basis of his performance of three quarters of this eredivisie season than on the basis of five years of Dutch and European football.

    On that note. On the Twente thread you said Douglas was likely not good enough for the international level because Ruiz wasn't either and because you don't rate Brama. Yet you've been consistently bigging up Ola John. And you highly rate Gouweleeuw who's never even been tested a single minute against European opponents.

    Look I'm fine with you not being in favour of a Douglas call-up, I'm not either albeit for entirely different reasons. But please be honest about your reasons for not wanting him to be called up. I think that's a fair question to ask.
  15. thatkid

    thatkid Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Club:
    --other--
    Country:
    Netherlands
    @DRB300: I don't really understand. You are calling Twente a colonialist club? Because they give kids from other countries a chance play for their club? What's wrong with that?

    @johan: You are exaggerating about Bruma. He is not as bad as you make him out to be. And he is showing improvement at HSV.

    And as for Douglas, we can use him in the NT. (and I think we will) but as DRB300 pointed oud we have other options like Gouweleeuw, who is developing at a ridiculous rate btw.
  16. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2007
    Country:
    Netherlands
    No I will continue to fight against the colonialists my country, who try to invent economical structures after economical structure to benefit and exploit other regions, like the "Twente-Manchester United" anti transfer paying, child trafficking structure. Now you guys also want to assimilate those kids into your own NT to make more more out of it for yourself and corner the critical thinkers rising up against this new injustice as whatever serves your own agenda. It's despicable.

    I have given you ratings and that took care of you ridiculing any Gouweleeuw-Douglas comparisment. What you don't seem to understand is, that you have to look at a person's handling speed and ability to play football to see if they could make it at the top. Another indicator is the adaptation power of a player from a young age on. Van Marwijk was so impressed with Strootman, as he could almost instantly move up with higher tempo. That is an indicator. Gouweleeuw from his first season on is up there with the best and is the rock Heerenveen leans on. A club that has not lost a game this year, contrary to your club. Douglas had many problems when he started out. Gouweleeuw was there instantly.

    The only thing that has to be made clear here, is how this is a discussion about rating football vs defensive ability. What is the balance between the two, you want to see in a defender. You rate the defensive part more. Others the football side. Let people decide on their own. You want to label them when they don't believe in Douglas, like Ruiz, Brama. Another person not believeing in Douglas is Mclaren, your coach. Not good enough for CL he said.

    Also you have not adressed his inability to deal with teasing attackers. What if Douglas gets teased in a quarter final? You think there are no smart attackers at the top? If he can't keep his head cool when he is 4-0 up then I want to know what he does with 2-0 down. That and his brain farts. Concentration.
  17. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2007
    Country:
    Netherlands
    I bring over discussion Douglas to this thread as this is the place for it:

    No you are not curious to my opinion. You want to link a principal discussion to the football discussion. Separating is very easy for me, not for you as you have already said, "we don't deserve Douglas". That is identification and subjectiveness at his best. For someone hoping he will not play for the NT, you put an awful lot of words into the discussion, to make a case that the NT needs him, but you really don't want him to play.

    If you are so concerned, then you would look out for his well being between all those xenophobes, yet you don't. Is that not a little contradicting? Every extra word you adding to this discussion adds to my impression you want him to play for the NT and you are the one looking out for other interests than Douglas well being: your club, the money and Twente's future. Not Douglas or the NT at all.
  18. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2007
    Country:
    Netherlands
    This bid is actually funnier than I first thought. First of all adding arguments to you seem to be a bad thing. Which is nothing less than something I have come to expect, however then this gem:

    [​IMG]


    Mclaren is in fact a man working day in day out with him and has worked with him in his best year yet for the club (when Twente became champ), but 8 posts earlier you think it shows great interest that Frank de Boer (who has not worked with him, and likes to play a whole year Anita at left back rather than DM) sees him as ideal replacement in a thread about Douglas in the NT.


    To use your own words: don't you have an own opinion Neeskens? An opinion less subjective, than we don't deserve Douglas? Are you actually entering this debate for once, by addressing MY OPIONION about his brain farts, his easiness to be drawn into red card behaviour, in his lack of football skills, in his low handling speed, in his inability to look for the football solution?

    Why are you concerned what I think by the way? I have only learned from the years you are only interested in one opinion: your own.
  19. DSC05

    DSC05 Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2002
    Location:
    Detroit, MI
    Club:
    --other--
    Such a fun topic, let's see how long this lasts before it gets nasty or starts to repeat itself.
    1 person likes this.
  20. richsavare

    richsavare Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2003
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Country:
    Netherlands
    I seem to have caused some chaos with a simple ?. I have been off the forum for a long time until recently but glad to be back. Neeskens always ready for battle.
  21. johan neeskens

    johan neeskens Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2004
    I don't mean to slag off Bruma, he has qualities particularly in build-up play. But he's too slow for the very highest level. What would make me pick Douglas ahead of him is the fact that Douglas is far more experienced on a high club level.
  22. johan neeskens

    johan neeskens Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2004
    My point is that if you look at this purely from a football perspective, NOT calling up Douglas would not make any sense whatsoever.

    Clearly our second and third choice central defenders aren't good enough. Bouma and Ooijer are over the hill, Vlaar can't cope at that level. So we need new blood. When you look at the candidates for the job, Gouweleeuw and Bruma have potential for the future, but there's not a coach on earth who would risk an inexperienced player in a central defender position - we're not talking about wingers here, they can be young and frivolous and make mistakes. You want a central defender to be used to playing at that level though.

    Look as I've told you many times before, I'm fine with you not rating Douglas. If you were to look at this logically however, you too would conclude that Van Marwijk will almost certainly call up Douglas in September, simply because after Matthijsen and Heitinga he's our only internationally proven central defender. It really is that simple. Is Douglas perfect? Far from it. But he's better and more experienced at a high level than all of the other alternatives.

    When you post this season's player ratings, I'm sorry and with all due respect, that's bollix reasoning. As it would also lead you to conclude that Sneijder out to be kicked out of the squad in favour of Maher.
  23. johan neeskens

    johan neeskens Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2004
    You're accusing me of not having an opinon? Teeheeeeeeee

    I've been a Twente season ticket holder for 20 years and have seen my fair share of defenders. I've seen the progress Douglas has made from day one starting as a left back at Twente, then moving to central defence. I would say that on average, he is giving us at least 20 points a season. We miss him terribly when he's not there. The man is world class, defensively. Yes he has his weaknesses, but defensively, he's better than Heitinga and Matthijssen combined. I personally think that's worth a call-up, you don't. Let's leave it at that.
  24. Orange14

    Orange14 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2007
    Location:
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Country:
    Netherlands
    Absolutely not true given the season that Heitinga has had at Everton. Week in and week out he faces far better offensive teams than Douglas does in the Eredivisie.
  25. johan neeskens

    johan neeskens Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2004
    I'm talking about very specific defensive qualities. Douglas is a better header and better tackler than Heitinga. He's also physically stronger and frankly scarier, which for a defender is a good thing in my book. Whereas Heitinga is much better in build-up play.

Share This Page