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End of collective bargaining/other anti-union measures plus reactions ...

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by purojogo, Feb 16, 2011.

  1. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

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    Re: Public Unions vs. the state of Wisconsin

    Alright maybe I'm not so sure.

    Starting pay for a policeman in my town is $64k, by the way. Which ain't bad given that there's no crime and thus no danger and thus the work consists pretty much of writing an occasional traffic ticket and helping the ladies across the street.

    But such is life, our school district with the nice safe suburban college-oriented kids pays double the teacher salaries of the Chicago Public Schools that have metal detectors and gang violence. The softer the job, the more it pays.
     


  2. wallacegrommit

    wallacegrommit Member

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    Re: Public Unions vs. the state of Wisconsin

    In my city it was called "spiking". The union contract calculated the pension amount in a way that included overtime worked in the last couple of years. So, the veterans who controlled the work schedule would accumulate a huge amount of overtime in their last year before retirement, then get a pension pay far in excess of their actual base salary. Since the retirement age was so low, many of them then would get another job after "retiring".
     
  3. chad

    chad Member+

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    Re: Public Unions vs. the state of Wisconsin

    If we had better teachers, we'd need fewer policeman.
     
  4. Chris M.

    Chris M. Member+

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    Re: Public Unions vs. the state of Wisconsin

    No it doesn't and I should have made that more clear that what I found was Wisconsin base salary numbers. I was actually supporting the point that the cops are not underpaid in relation to teachers. With standard overtime, my guess is that the Police number is higher.

    Regardless, the numbers are in the ball park that there is no reason (beyond pure politics) to exclude them from cuts if you are cutting other public employees.
     


  5. Metrogo

    Metrogo Member

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    Re: Public Unions vs. the state of Wisconsin

    Uhmmm, I'm not sure it's superdave who's the jackass. The Bureau of Labor statistics says that females make up 78% of the total pre-school through high school teaching population. Females are 4% of all firefighters and 13% of all police officers.

    I think an apology is in order young man, or you're going to the principal's office.
     
  6. Metrogo

    Metrogo Member

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    Re: Public Unions vs. the state of Wisconsin

    yes.
     
  7. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator Staff Member

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    Re: Public Unions vs. the state of Wisconsin

    That made me curious to check the town I grew up in, also of similar description, just outside LA. From what I could find, starting Jr and Sr high pay is 70k, while starting police pay is 50k. I know one thing that was a complaint when I lived there was that police were required to live in town (keep in mind that current medial home price is about 600k) so their pay was very high. Further, when i was a junior in HS. the teachers went on strike to get their salaries raised, and succeeded with the support of the community (as far as I can remember, there was little objection when ever a small tax was placed to fund schools). I don't know about the police, but the belief in the schools are the same.
     
  8. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator Staff Member

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    Re: Public Unions vs. the state of Wisconsin

    seriously? *shakes head in disbelief* Perhaps I took it personal, but still, I find that to be a negative stereotype.

    I've been the principal's office before. Coffee and crackers. ;)
     
  9. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator Staff Member

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    Re: Public Unions vs. the state of Wisconsin

    Really? Outside the classroom, how is a teacher responsible for the student?
     
  10. Metrogo

    Metrogo Member

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    Re: Public Unions vs. the state of Wisconsin

    The ratio is highest in preK and K, but is still 80% in middle school and 57% in HS.
     
  11. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

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    Re: Public Unions vs. the state of Wisconsin

    Our HS teachers are paid much more than are the Junior High teachers. Remarkably, there's a web site up that lists the base salary for every teacher at the high school. The kid's math teacher makes $135k. Econ teacher $98. French teacher $115k. Etc.
     
  12. fatbastard

    fatbastard Member+

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    Re: Public Unions vs. the state of Wisconsin

    I thought he was trying to say "if we took teaching our children properly more seriously" instead of "if we had better teachers" - or at least then I could agree with him :)

    Teachers are but one cog in the education gear. Just from what I myself have put some teachers through, I do not think it is possible to pay them too much or provide them with a good enough pension. I can't imagine what a pain in the butt some of the rest of you were ;)
     
  13. MtMike

    MtMike Member+

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    Re: Public Unions vs. the state of Wisconsin

    http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_c814c77a-3600-11e0-b9e0-001cc4c03286.html

    Another article. Apparently, the governor is doing everything according to the law, by giving 30 days notice of the cancellation of collective bargaining. It would allow for unions to negotiate salary.

    "Currently most state employees pay nothing toward their pensions and only a modest amount for their insurance. Walker said those increases alone would save the state $30 million this fiscal year and ten times that much going forward. He also said the change would allow him to avoid employee furloughs and layoffs. Walker said he would likely have had to fire 1,500 people and cut about 200,000 children off Medicaid to make up the difference.

    He said those numbers get even worse going forward, perhaps costing more than 5,500 people their jobs in the next biennial budget."
     
  14. maturin

    maturin Member

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    Re: Public Unions vs. the state of Wisconsin

    We're upset about the benefits cuts, naturally. State workers do have better benefits than many in the public sector, but that's because their salaries are commensurately lower. They agree to lower salaries because the benefits make it worth it. Take away those benefits, and all of a sudden they've got salaries that are 10-20% less than what an equivalent private sector worker would make, and they no longer have the benefits that make working in the public sector attractive.

    But what we're really angry about is the blatant union-busting that the Governor is trying to cover up with his budget repair bill. If state workers have to lose some benefits now while the budget recovers from the massive deficit, we can deal with that, or at least some of us can. The teachers, probably not, but for those in administration, it's a paycheck hit but it's not crippling. But to revoke the right to bargain collectively forever, and to tie any future raises to the consumer price index, is an affront on workers' right and cannot be tolerated. Governor Walker is trying to use our budget deficit as a means of waging class warfare on public workers. He wants to drive the government to its knees, to destroy public services so that he can help his cronies in big industry cash in. This is unacceptable. It's wrong. It's despicable and the Governor and the republicans in the legislature need to back down from this part of the bill if they even want to be able to drive their Suburbans around town without stones being thrown through their windows.
     
  15. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

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    Re: Public Unions vs. the state of Wisconsin

    Of course, that's the national tactic as well, per the Republicans' current budget proposal. The December tax cuts played nicely into their hands, as that makes for an even larger 2011 deficit, and thus gives them even more reason to slash the Dems' government programs.
     
  16. fatbastard

    fatbastard Member+

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    Re: Public Unions vs. the state of Wisconsin

    yeah, this whole economic "situation" is giving public and private folks a great excuse to try some good old fashioned union busting. This is but one example lately.
    It's disgusting.

    I love the sit-ins and stuff - keep it up Wisconsin Workers!
     
  17. dna77054

    dna77054 Member

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    Re: Public Unions vs. the state of Wisconsin

    So are you saying the average private school teacher would make 10-20% more than the average public school teacher without benefits. I find that hard to believe. And nobody is looking to take away their benefits. They are being asked/required to contribute more for those benefits, bringing them in line with the rest of the population.
     
  18. fatbastard

    fatbastard Member+

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    Re: Public Unions vs. the state of Wisconsin

    I doubt you can find in writing how they're only being asked to contribute more. Was this some sort of un-reported-on early request from the governor before proposing to outlaw collective bargaining?

    We aren't talking about just teachers either. You have programmers, analysts, project managers, construction folks, all sorts of public employees. In my experience (on the IT side of life), yes private salaries are far above the public workers, they still get some qualified people by offering better/commensurate benefits and some stability.

    If we make them like everyone else, what reason would anyone have to work for the state or federal government? I mean besides hearing on the radio and TV everyday how lazy, stupid, and useless you are.
     
  19. superdave

    superdave Member+

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    Re: Public Unions vs. the state of Wisconsin

    Are you really gonna try to argue that teaching schools is NOT preceived by the public as women's work, while policing and firefighting is perceived as men's work???

    C'mon.
     
  20. MtMike

    MtMike Member+

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    Re: Public Unions vs. the state of Wisconsin

    How else would you guys suggest Wisconsin balance its budget? If you take families off of medicare or kids off of free/reduced lunch, GOP is guilty of attacking the poor and class warfare. I guess you could cut back on roads and infrastructure, which I'm sure they'll do as well. If you alter public employees compensation, then you're "union-busting" and waging war on the middle class. Where would you make cuts if you were in the Wisconsin government.

    Does anyone have tangible suggestions (other than cutting funding to the Wisconsin National Guard?)
     
  21. Metrogo

    Metrogo Member

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    Re: Public Unions vs. the state of Wisconsin

    Wisconsin should amend its constitution so that it does not have to balance its budget when unemployment is over 8%.
     
  22. maturin

    maturin Member

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    Re: Public Unions vs. the state of Wisconsin

    I'd start by not giving $100 million in tax cuts to massive corporations, which was Walker's first act as governor. You can't cut taxes for the filthy rich, then slash the benefits of the middle class and say you have no options for balancing the budget. Our budget deficit could have been cut by 68% without those tax cuts.
     
  23. MtMike

    MtMike Member+

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    Re: Public Unions vs. the state of Wisconsin

    And that's how states and our federal government got into this mess in the first place. There's always some excuse to not balance the budget from both sides.
     
  24. MtMike

    MtMike Member+

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    Re: Public Unions vs. the state of Wisconsin

    What if those corporations would have moved to a state with more tax-friendly structure for them? Then you lose all those jobs and the problem is exacerbated further.

    I don't anything about the specific incident you're referring to, but you have to keep employers in state at the same time.
     
  25. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

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    Re: Public Unions vs. the state of Wisconsin

    Actually we got into this mess by cutting taxes, esp. corporate taxes. With higher taxes, corporations would do things to dodge said taxes like, oh, I don't know, invest in their business, whereas now they take their record profits and sit on them.

    So, in so far as our federal government fronts for global capital, you're correct.
     

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