End of collective bargaining/other anti-union measures plus reactions ...

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by purojogo, Feb 16, 2011.

  1. purojogo

    purojogo Member

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    Re: Public Unions vs. the state of Wisconsin

    Boehner....seriously, WTF.... (well his statement should go to the GOP Fasilure thread as well in all fairness)

    Anyway, the vid shows a pattern of behavior......

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O83LC783Tw0"]YouTube - Rachel Maddow Why GOP is OK with federal job losses[/ame]


  2. purojogo

    purojogo Member

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    Re: Public Unions vs. the state of Wisconsin

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/ns/msnbc_tv-rachel_maddow_show/#41655758

    To summarize:
    -State was on track to have a 121 million dollar surplus at the start of the year
    -Governor tax breaks this year to business amounts to 147 million...
    -OMG it's a crisis! Let's screw unions and state employees....unless they supported me in my campaign...
    -Is it politically motivated? I'd argue Maddow makes a heckof a point that it is... MOney in politics, the fact that 7 of the biggest outside spending groups of contributors in the 2010 election were pro-business, conservative groups....and the other 3 in the top 10 were unions.... Destroy unions, destroy any political opposition left that stands for any non-conservative platform and that has the ability to affect elections...plus cripple their ability to organize, affect voting turnout, voting registration etc... leaving us with only pro-business groups left to contribute and affect elections.... and we know how well they ALWAYS take care of the American people's best interests....in a time where the "invisible hand" of the market has never been quite so invisible
  3. DoctorD

    DoctorD Member+

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    Public sector benefits are out of control all over the country. Way higher than private sector or federal employee.
  4. Transparent_Human

    Transparent_Human Member+

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    Good, then pay teachers private sector wages.

    Lets see, babysitter wages, what do they get these days? lets say $10 an hour. For say............30 kids. That's $2100 bucks for a 7 hour day.

    Sounds reasonable to me.


  5. MtMike

    MtMike Member+

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    That's some sweet babysitting.

    $2100 x 5 days a week= $10,500 a week. Times 50 weeks in a year=$525,000.

    Every babysitter I know makes 500k+ a year, now that you mention it.
  6. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

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    Private sector bennies are pretty damn sweet for CEOs and CFOs.
  7. Chris M.

    Chris M. Member+

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    Well, teachers really only teach something like 36 weeks, correct? I come at this whole argument as someone who has great respect for teachers (anyone who even visits a 2nd grade class can see how tough it is simply keeping order) and I certainly don't begrudge them anything they get, BUT I also take into account how sweet a gig it is in other respects. All major holidays off without question. Three months off in the summer. I'd kill for that just once in my working life. Spring break, Christmas break, etc. I'm certainly not saying the are OVER paid, I'm just saying that their job in many, many ways is different from others. Some good, some tough, some bad.

    Back to the topic, I heard one of the awol dems hiding out in Illinois this morning. He was asked, "what if the governor offered the exact same cuts or more accurately, the same contributions from state employees for their health care and their pensions but left collective bargaining in place?"

    He said that was a perfectly viable position and might be an end in terms of negotiations but that it is the crushing of collective bargaining that is the issue. So, in sum, EVERYONE I have heard from the public employee side of this has been conciliatory and recognizes that there will be a change in their benefits and their contributions. Yet there are NO negotiations and NO efforts to address the budget shortfall. This is union crushing action, pure and simple.

    The republican talking points on this have been pretty obvious on tv. Bash the state employees by saying that they should be treated like all of us in the private world. Show how they are paying 0% into pensions and next to nothing into their insurance (6% I think) and ignoring the primary issue.

    To get on top of the argument, I think I would factor in increases to police and fire and then recalculate to meet the number the governor is proposing and then put that out there as an acceptable modification to the current contract WITH collective bargaining in place. In other words, take the budget and money out of this. If you include the police and fire, I'm guessing it would add up to something like an 8% contribution from each employee to health care and 3.5 or 4% contribution to retirement. That is still a pretty sweet deal and keeps them well below what most of us pay to make up for any concessions they made on salary to get those benefits.
  8. Chris M.

    Chris M. Member+

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    They are. I have often said that I wish there were more shareholder suits against boards who give too much compensation, benefits and golden parachutes to top execs who can run a company into the dirt and still collect.
  9. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator Staff Member

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    Re: Public Unions vs. the state of Wisconsin

    The latter, no, the prior is an attempt to change that perception, along with the idea that teachers are totally responsible for a child's education. They are both connected, loosely, to the idea that women take care of the children.
  10. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator Staff Member

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    and I believe the quality of education would skyrocket.

    One of the websites I was looking did a comparison of public versus private salaries (mainly HS versus private). It was a comparison of Biology teacher versus biology scientist and such. If I recall, private sector jobs only slightly out paid teacher jobs, but I think this was California, and only at the starting level.

    But, what is missing is the people needed to teach. I think we all agree that we need more science and math in our schools. Just the other day, I heard a statistic about Physics teachers in Tennessee. Currently, there are two licensed Physics teachers in the Memphis area, and Tennessee only certified one Physics teacher in the last year. That, I believe, is pay AND having to deal with children all day (knowing somebody who could become certified as a physics teacher, but refused to because of that factor). Additionally, I knew very few teachers who work only 8 hours a day.

    I dislike many teachers' unions, but I also recognize they are beneficial. Without those unions, I think it may be more difficult to get teachers into the profession.
  11. dna77054

    dna77054 Member

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    I think this guy makes an important point

    from http://www.jsonline.com/news/opinion/116355379.html

    Quote: "They insist this is the end of unionization in government, something to which they have as much right, they say, as anyone else.

    But they miss a bedrock difference. Unions in the private sector are a way of organizing private interests, those of employees, against other private interests, those of a company's owners, for economic gain and for protection against unfairness. In government, workers are already protected against unfairness by civil service laws, and Walker has supported expanding those. Economically, government unions pit a private interest, that of employees, against the public's interest, that of taxpayers and voters." end quote

    Without unions, it is not as if public sector employees are at the mercies of greedy corporations.
  12. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

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    Given how unions have been systematically weakened over the past 3, going on 4 decades, and given how much access corporations have to governments...

    yeah, they are.
  13. dna77054

    dna77054 Member

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    please connect the dots for me on this. How does a private corporation specifically hurt public employees in a way that a public employees union would prevent?
  14. Chris M.

    Chris M. Member+

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    Well, at least you are admitting that this is not a budget issue but a union busting issue. I guess you point can be considered, but not in this context. You don't change the status quo in which all of these employees had negotiated a deal by hiding behind a budget crisis. I don't think that negotiations are the same with public employee unions, but what is the alternative in your mind?
  15. superdave

    superdave Member+

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    What is the sound of one hand clapping? The applause for this post.

    DoctorD, can you please explain why you are talking about bennies and not pay? Is it because you think we're stupid? (We're not.) Or is it because you didn't think about it, all you did was regurgitate What Rush Said.
  16. superdave

    superdave Member+

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    Only if this is a moral question. It ain't. It's about power.
  17. schrutebuck

    schrutebuck Member+

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    Re: Public Unions vs. the state of Wisconsin

    I think you've summarized this controversy rather well.
  18. JeremyEritrea

    JeremyEritrea Member+

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    Without unions public sector employees are at the mercies of the current political party in power.
  19. JeremyEritrea

    JeremyEritrea Member+

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  20. WarrenWallace

    WarrenWallace Member

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  21. ragnarok2k

    ragnarok2k Red Card

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    Madison native here... this is not going to end well for the unions or the democrats. Close schools for one day to protest? fine. But for 3 days and threatening even more days of closure is out of line. Also, having the state senator that you vote for run away to another state and refuse to come back until his demands are met irks me to no end. I dont remember the republicans doing this shit the last 8 years we've had complete democratic control of this state. I'm a democrat and they're starting to lose my support, and apparently (the local news had a poll saying 88% of madisonians want them to come back and vote) other people are getting pissed off too.

    I want walker out too but this is the dumbest way to do it.
  22. marek

    marek Member

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  23. ragnarok2k

    ragnarok2k Red Card

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    dude, as much as I would like this poll to be true you need to look at the internals. first the organization - very well known liberal organization here that gets money from the unions themselves. Second, this is grade A push polling, the front loaded questions obviously skew the result. its a bullshit poll, and if a republican pollster did this i would call them out too.
  24. Metrogo

    Metrogo Member

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  25. dredgfan

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    Re: Public Unions vs. the state of Wisconsin

    They gave money to the Gov'nors campaign.

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