End of collective bargaining/other anti-union measures plus reactions ...

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by purojogo, Feb 16, 2011.

  1. dredgfan

    dredgfan Member

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    The 'shortfall' is almost as much as the GOP and Gov's breaks to corporations. Ironic, that workers don't want their wages cut because some union busters gave money to their buddies.


  2. SoFla Metro

    SoFla Metro Member

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    Re: Public Unions vs. the state of Wisconsin

    You speak a lot in hypotheticals and very little in facts.
  3. SoFla Metro

    SoFla Metro Member

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    Right, this isn't a single issue.

    First, you have changes in the benefit structure (which hte unions have already expressed a willingness to negotiate)

    Then, you have the removal of collective bargaining. That's not by itself necessarily a deal-breaker (I'm in the private sector and not in a union, thus I do not have collective bargaining rights).

    Add the third item and suddenly it becomes untenable. Not only are they attempting to remove collective bargaining, but by tying any future raises to a specific index, they are also removing individual bargaining rights. Thus the worker, no matter how industrial or talented, has zero possibility of negotiating a better position.
  4. MtMike

    MtMike Member+

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    Re: Public Unions vs. the state of Wisconsin

    So, to assume the union leader speaking is telling the truth or that the governor is lying isn't hypothetical, but assuming the opposite is?


  5. Pauncho

    Pauncho Member

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    (1) In the next budget, states are going to have real pain. They have to cut, and cut deeply, into things people care about. The Republicans who won the 2010 election need a scapegoat, and they need one fast. It wouldn't do for people to remember that it was Wall Street that caused our present financial mess. State employees are perfect. They're really, really unpopular. Focus as much attention as possible on their bloated benefits just before the main budget battle hits the headlines.

    (2) Conservative Republicans regard public employee unions as their mortal enemies, because they are. Never waste a crisis. This is the perfect opportunity to kill the whole institution dead. If it makes a permanent change so middle class workers get less and taxpayers keep more, so much the better.
  6. tomwilhelm

    tomwilhelm Member+

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    Of the largest campaign and political advertising contributors in the last cycle, 7 were corporate organizations. All of them supported Republican candidates. The other 3... the only three that were supporting liberal ideas... were unions.

    This is electoral strategy as much as anything else. If the GOP can destroy the unions, there is literally no one big left on the electoral spending map for their opponents.

    Welcome to the corporate state.
  7. marek

    marek Member

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    is that how you see the world? really?


    you should not encourage him... he's on the edge already
  8. Dr Jay

    Dr Jay BigSoccer Supporter

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    Would it be a crazy idea for all states to develop their own standard benefit package for state/city/local employees ?

    Benefits should be good and less expensive as the single entity could negotiate good rates for insurance, etc.

    It would take benefits out of the contracting process and ensure a fair and equitable set of benefits for all government employees.
  9. Pauncho

    Pauncho Member

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  10. dna77054

    dna77054 Member

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    Given adequate civil service laws and the fact the legislatures are replaceable and responsive to the will of the people, I just to not see the need for PUBLIC employee unions.

    Some here argue that without Public Employee Unions the public employees will basically be at he mercy of whatever the state wants/can afford to spend on them (which is apparently bad thing), yet these many of these same posters support government control of health care spending through a single payer system and government control of some retirement (through SS, which IIRC already indexes payment to inflation/cola changes) where the public is already at the mercy of the state.

    Why do you trust the government to do the right thing with regard to health care and retirement but not with regard to is own employees?

    Not trusting government spending priorities makes the tea party insane, but not trusting government spending priorities makes the public employees clairvoyant???
  11. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

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    Re: Public Unions vs. the state of Wisconsin

    Ok:

    Private corporations get tax breaks. Subsequent revenue lost to be paid for by public sector unions.

    And their protests are, in part, trying to prevent this.
  12. ElJefe

    ElJefe Moderator Staff Member

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    If public employee unions are the problem in Wisconsin and need to be busted in Wisconsin...

    1. What makes the police and firefighters unions different?

    2. Why are states where public employee unions are not allowed to collectively bargain also in such terrible fiscal condition?
  13. purojogo

    purojogo Member

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    Interview with Klein...

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Vt1dygHbOg"]YouTube - Naomi Klein talks to MSNBC about the Shock Doctrine, Wisconsin style[/ame]

    Same interview, with an intro/deeper look into the issue by Hayes....


    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-LC2qKvVtQ"]YouTube - Naomi Klein "This Is A Classic Example Of The Shock Doctrine"[/ame]
  14. purojogo

    purojogo Member

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    btw, this is effin' interesting, and something i had not heard about until Klein mentioned it.....
    US Uncut.....which is just starting to get off the ground

    http://www.theworld.org/2011/02/15/us-uncut-founder-carl-gibson/


    Documentary (short vid) on UK Uncut, the movement that has inspired the creation of US Uncut...

    http://vimeo.com/fatratfilms/ukuncut

    http://www.theworld.org/2011/02/15/uk-uncut-demands-british-budget-cuts-reversal/

    "The plan

    That night, they hatched a plan.

    They decided to examine which corporations and individuals were avoiding big tax bills, and then target them with peaceful protests"
    ....
  15. marek

    marek Member

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    Re: Public Unions vs. the state of Wisconsin

    http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin...-maddow-says-wisconsin-track-have-budget-sur/

    Liberal MSNBC talk show host Rachel Maddow joined in Feb. 17, accusing Walker of manipulating the situation for political gain.

    "Despite what you may have heard about Wisconsin’s finances, the state is on track to have a budget surplus this year," she said. "I am not kidding."

    She added a kicker that is also making the rounds: Walker and fellow Republicans in the Legislature this year gave away $140 million in business tax breaks -- so if there is a deficit projected of $137 million, they created it.

    ....


    There is fierce debate over the approach Walker took to address the short-term budget deficit. But there should be no debate on whether or not there is a shortfall. While not historically large, the shortfall in the current budget needed to be addressed in some fashion. Walker’s tax cuts will boost the size of the projected deficit in the next budget, but they’re not part of this problem and did not create it.

    We rate Maddow’s take False.
  16. marek

    marek Member

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    http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2011/02/18/wisconsin-the-hemlock-revolution/#ixzz1EQnTwg6q

    Revolutions everywhere--in the middle east, in the middle west. But there is a difference: in the middle east, the protesters are marching for democracy; in the middle west, they're protesting against it. I mean, Isn't it, well, a bit ironic that the protesters in Madison, blocking the state senate chamber, are chanting "Freedom, Democracy, Union" while trying to prevent a vote? Isn't it ironic that the Democratic Senators have fled the democratic process? Isn't it interesting that some of those who--rightly--protest the assorted Republican efforts to stymie majority rule in the U.S. Senate are celebrating the Democratic efforts to stymie the same in the Wisconsin Senate?...

    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2011/02/tyranny_in_wisconsin_part_4.html

    t has been just over five weeks since a deranged gunman in a Tucson suburb left six people dead and 13 injured, including Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-Ariz.). In the wake of that horrific tragedy, Americans reflected on -- and argued about -- the possible connection between the violence and today's often nasty, polarized political discourse.

    President Obama, in a moving eulogy for the fallen, called on all Americans to "pause for a moment and make sure that we are talking with each other in a way that heals, not a way that wounds."

    Yet today in Wisconsin, anger and vilification are once again the order of the day -- and the incivility emanates from the progressive end of the spectrum, including, no doubt, many of the same people who blamed right-wing vitriol for creating a climate of violence in Arizona. Union-backed demonstrators, furious at Republican Gov. Scott Walker's plans for reining in public-sector unions, equate him with Hosni Mubarak and Adolf Hitler, in disgusting mimickry of some Tea Party members' inflammatory linkage between Obama and the evil dictators of history. (See Photo no. 10 in this gallery) or Photo 13 in this gallery ....
  17. Bob Morocco

    Bob Morocco Member+

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    Well I'm glad it has been proven that those tax cuts were not massively hypocritical. That they, along with the changes to collective bargaining rights, aren't based on a priori notions that tax cuts are always good and that unions are always bad. That Gov. Walker is truly doing the right thing based on the cyclical and structural fiscal challenges he's facing today.


    http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/2011/02/shared-sacrifice-in-michigan/

    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2011/02/are_wisconsins_state_and_local.html
  18. JBigjake

    JBigjake Member+

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    One of the comments links this article, which mention the Cato Institute:
    http://www.620wtmj.com/news/local/116271554.html
    Source document: http://www.cato.org/pubs/tbb/tbb-59.pdf
    So, there are statistics and studies on both sides of the argument. I doubt many people are arguing that they are better off, it's usually the "poor me" syndrome. I'd be surprised if Cato published an article entitled, "You know, those public workers are right! They work harder for less pay than private sector workers!"
    http://www.cato.org/search_results....eload=1&getfields=summary&btnG.x=28&btnG.y=16
  19. purojogo

    purojogo Member

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    Re: Public Unions vs. the state of Wisconsin

    Interesting...i hope she addresses this on MOnday..Often times, whenever she's been inaccurate, she has corrected herself in the past (on air)......
  20. MtMike

    MtMike Member+

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  21. superdave

    superdave Member+

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    I wish you could examine your use of "need" here. I don't mean to be a jackass (if I am) but why?

    Here's the bottom line. As unions have gotten weaker, so has the US economy for the bottom 90%. I realize that it's not a unidirectional cause, that there's a feedback loop. But to the extent that public policy has weakened unions, we should resist those policies, and try to reverse past policies that have weakened unions.

    Now, I only hold that belief because I love the United State. People who hate the United States like al Qaeda and you are going to have a different belief, because such people want America to be weak rather than strong, poor rather than rich. But I don't give a shit what America's enemies want.
  22. fatbastard

    fatbastard Member+

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    That's not true. You do have a right. You could form a union in your job if the majority of your co-workers and you feel it is necessary. It's pretty easy, I can hook you up with a guy. Heck, a few of you could get together and collectively bargain for something without an official union if you work for the right company.

    Many folks, many job types, do not feel the need for union representation, and that's fine, but they still have that right if things change. And with no other unions out there to fight for minimum worker's rights, they will.

    So if some governor came along and stripped that right from you even if you choose not to actively use it, wouldn't that piss you off? It would me. You probably don't use your right to remain silent very often either, but it's nice to have in case some shit goes down.

    Even if you do not belong to a union, or work in a sector without union representation, you still enjoy many of the benefits fought for by other union members, workers just like you, in the past. It is likely you enjoyed one of them over the past two days relaxing in your house, possibly another one today. If you only work 8-10 hours a day, there's another one. If you don't have to drop your kids off at work instead of school, thank a union member, etc. :)

    These guys are going way too far in their union-busting efforts. I've been on the front line of a few of those (GE and Westinghouse in Charleston SC and Tampa Florida), and they usually degrade into alot of unhappy poor people, a few really rich power-hungry ones, and then the violence usually comes down from them to the poor ones and it gets really ugly. In this case, at least the Boss and his minions (Gov. and state reps) won't get to buy the police to go beat the union guys - I've seen that too. So it should be able to stay peaceful.
  23. Demosthenes

    Demosthenes Member+

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    I cannot for the life of me understand how any American could not support and want to protect workers' collective bargaining rights.
  24. marek

    marek Member

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    "All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public personnel management. The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with Government employee organizations. The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives in Congress. Accordingly, administrative officials and employees alike are governed and guided, and in many instances restricted, by laws which establish policies, procedures, or rules in personnel matters."
  25. fatbastard

    fatbastard Member+

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    yeah, unless you're a CEO/CFO or the head or a giant HR department I cannot imagine why people would hate American workers that much. If you are one of those, then regular people are just a giant pain in your ass :)

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