European Qualification through Cups

Discussion in 'Cups & Competitions' started by Duck Manson, May 3, 2009.

  1. Duck Manson

    Duck Manson Member+

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    OK I have a question. Top four gets CL qualification, but how does the spread on the UEFA Cup work? Winner of the FA Cup gets UEFA spot. What about the League Cup? The team that wins the FA cup is top four then the finalist gets UEFA Cup right? Can anyone do a run down on this please. Or provide a link with the different tiebreakers.


  2. mjspurs83

    mjspurs83 New Member

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    Good question, will just 7 place give UEFA this season or both 7 and 8 since both domestic cups is won by teams that has allready qualified for europe?
  3. Lusankya

    Lusankya Moderator Staff Member

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    England only has 7 spots, so team No. 8 in the league doesn't get a spot.

    N1-N3: CLGS
    N4: CLPO
    FACW: ELPO
    N5: ELPO
    LCW: ELQ3




    If FACW is already qualified for CL the runner-up will get a spot in the EL (but always the worst one!). If the runner-up is also already qualified for CL or EL, the spot (still the worst!) goes to the next placed team, which doesn't already have a spot, in the league.

    If the LCW is already qualified for Europe (because every spot beside the possible spot of the FA Cup RU is better than the LC spot), the spot goes to the league.


    Scenario1:

    N1 wins Fa Cup, N8 is runner up
    N8 wins league cup

    So N8 is qualified "two times" for Europe. FA Cup RU spot is the worst so they participate because of their leage cup succes.

    In this case the following teams would particpate in Europe:

    N1-N4: CL
    N5: ELPO (highest spot in EL)
    N8: ELPO (as league cup winner)
    N6: ELQ3 (because the FA Cup RU spot (which is always the worst spot) is distributed in the league)

    Scenario 2:

    N1 wins FA Cup, N5 is RU
    N18 wins league cup

    N1-N4: CL
    N5: ELPO (highest spot, they don't need the FA Cup RU spot, because the 5th rank provides them with a better spot)
    N18: ELPO (LCW)
    N6: ELQ3

    Scenario 3:

    N5 wins FA Cup, N7 is RU
    N18 wins LC

    N1-N4: CL
    N5: ELPO (as Cup winner, because Cup winners always get the highest EL spots!)
    N6: ELPO (because N5 doesn't need its spot through the 5th place, as the FA Cup provides them with a "better" spot)
    N7: nothing
    N18: ELQ3 (as LCW, because if there is no FACup RU spot, the LCW gets the worst spot)

    Scenario 4:

    N5 wins Fa Cup
    N5 wins Leage Cup

    N5 will play in Europe as the cup winner, league cup and N5 spot are not used, so N6 and N7 will play in Europe, too.


    Edit: please see my next post for a correction.
  4. Duck Manson

    Duck Manson Member+

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  5. Lusankya

    Lusankya Moderator Staff Member

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    A correction for scenario 1&2.

    I think LCW would start in ELQ3 and N6 in ELPO.

    If the winner of the domestic cup qualifies for the UEFA Champions League, the domestic cup runner-up qualifies for the UEFA Europa League at the
    stage initially reserved for the lowest ranking top domestic league
    representative (or the winner of another official domestic competition
    specified in paragraph 2.03). Should both the winner and the runner-up of the domestic cup qualify for the UEFA Champions League, the association concerned may enter for the UEFA Europa League the club which finishes
    the top domestic league immediately below the other club or clubs which
    qualify for the UEFA Europa League. In both cases, the access stage initially reserved for the domestic cup winner is reserved for the club which finishes the domestic league in the highest position out of all the clubs which qualify for the UEFA Europa League from the association concerned (see Annex Ia). Each representative of the domestic league will then enter the competition at the stage initially reserved for the domestic league representative ranked immediately above it.



    So apparently the League Cup winner will only starts in ELPO, if the loser of the Fa Cup Final gets and needs the spot.
  6. stripthem

    stripthem New Member

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  7. SJJ

    SJJ Member

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    I don't know how much time I spent looking at the UCL/Ucup rules last year, trying to figure out these scenarios of teams qualifying multiple times. It is puzzling when an English team could qualify for Europe via:

    Champions League champion
    Uefa Cup (Euro League) champion
    EPL top 5
    FA Cup (winner or runner-up, although I wasn't sure about the "runner up" part)
    League Cup (winner or runner-up, same question about the "runner up")
    next-in-line EPL for any duplications above
    Fair Play points.

    It was the "next in line" thing that gave me the quandry.

    So, to go back to one point, the most that England could get is 7 places by league/cup methods, and then possibly an 8th team by Fair Play? (Yes? No?)

    I think the domestic-cup runner-up rule was clarified this year by UEFA. Some federations didn't just give the Ucup spot to a runner up; they still had to "qualify" by winning their domestic cup. UEFA made that rule explicit this time.

    One other thing: I thought that since Shakhtar Donetsk won the UEFA Cup, they automatically got a spot in the group stage of the Euro League. But, I guess, since they also qualified for the Champions League (qualifying stages), their auto-bid was gone. They got dropped down to the Euro League qualifying stages (meaning that they still had to go through a round, instead of directly advancing).
  8. JackBastard

    JackBastard Member

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    The FA Cup runners-up get a Europa League spot if the winners are already in the EC/EL. Only the winners of the league cup get a spot, if the winners are already in either European competition then #6 in the league takes that spot.
  9. doctorwhodds

    doctorwhodds Member

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    I don't think the first sentence is correct. In 2008 when Cardiff City was in the final, there was a big ruckus because they are a Welsh club. If Pompey (the winners) had finished fifth, the FA would NOT have given Cardiff a UEFA cup bid.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/c/cardiff_city/7350681.stm
  10. Lusankya

    Lusankya Moderator Staff Member

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    It's wrong anyway, as the losing finalist can only get an EL spot if the cup winner is already qualified for CL.
    See my above posts.
  11. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

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  12. JackBastard

    JackBastard Member

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    Cardiff would have been eligable for a UEFA Cup spot had they won. I believe the FA would have allowed them to represent England. We finished 6th in the First Division in 1982 and qualified for the UEFA Cup, but as we also won the Welsh Cup we decided to enter the Cup Winners' Cup instead, so it's never been proven either way.

    Yes, 5th, 6th and 7th will now take the Europa League spots and quite rightly so. More needs to be done to sort out clubs who overspend to the extent that Portsmouth have. I've got no sympathy with them whatsoever.
  13. dupont

    dupont Member

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    Will Birmingham qualify for Europe if Arsenal wins the Carling Cup and gets a CL spot through their league position?
  14. Lusankya

    Lusankya Moderator Staff Member

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    No, the losing finalist of the "League Cup" never qualifies for a European cup.
  15. dupont

    dupont Member

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    What if the winner and runners up of the FA Cup make CL spots through their league place?
  16. Lusankya

    Lusankya Moderator Staff Member

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  17. dupont

    dupont Member

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    What about if we win the League Cup? :eek:
  18. Lusankya

    Lusankya Moderator Staff Member

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    Then Birmingham would qualify for the EL as League Cup winners.
  19. dupont

    dupont Member

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    Yeah well we are gonna spank Arsenal cos they are pansies.

    They won't be able to play all their pretty stuff on that big pitch. We need to hit them hard and take a few yellows and they will wilt.

    Glory will be ours with Cameron Jerome getting the winner.
  20. SJJ

    SJJ Member

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    Can you explain your reasoning a little clearer on this, Lusankya? I too was wondering if the losing League Cup finalist also got a bid, if the winner qualifies for the CL. The EL regulations don't exactly say yes or no, but does the fact that it doesn't say definitely yes, then no is implied?

    Also, just wondering, where is the list of approved second-cup competitions?
  21. Lusankya

    Lusankya Moderator Staff Member

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    Exactly. They explain very specifically how it works with the losing finalist in the national cup competition and don't mention a second competition in any way. A second cup competition is only mentionend in 2.03 where it states that only the winner can gain a berth.

    Also in the past it worked that way. E.g. in 2006 Wigan Atheltic lost the league cup final against Manchester Utd. (already qualified for CL) and Wigan Athletic didn't get a spot for EL.




    I don't have a list, but I know only the English and French league cup winners get entry for EL.
  22. SJJ

    SJJ Member

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    Fair Play qualification

    The announcers in today's Man United - Fulham match says that Fulham will get a bid to the Europa League via the Eufa Fair Play points. They say that ManU lead the England's FP race (don't know how... they mouth off about every single topic, every single minute, every single time...) and Fulham is second, so they would get the highest-FP-team-not-already-qaualified-for-Europe bid.
  23. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

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    So imagine three clubs from the bottom half of the Premier League qualifying for the Europa League:

    Fulham (Fair Play) could finish in the top half or bottom half

    Stoke City (if they beat Bolton in the FA Cup Semifinal they will make the Europa League even if they lose the final to a Manchester club as long as that Manchester club finishes in the Top 5) could finish in the top half or bottom half. Even Bolton could fall to the bottom half but that's unlikely

    Birmingham City (League Cup winner)
  24. SJJ

    SJJ Member

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    Evan, I think City would have to finish in the top 4, not 5. There is no back-door for losing the cup final to a team qualified for the EL, only for the CL.

    Up to yesterday, there was a scenario where City would finish fourth, and still not be in the CL. This would have been if the Chelsea or Tottenham had won the CL, they would get the holder's place, so only 1-3 from the league would go, and City would end up in the EL. In that case, losing to City in the cup final would not have granted Bolton or Stoke any bid. (This is how I understood it from Bobby McMahon.)

    So if three bottom-dwellers (and Birmingham could still be relegated) make Europe, and they all lose early, wouldn't that give England a hit in the federation club rankings, for five years? (Of course, that could also happen to Germany if division-II Duisburg gets an EL bid, either by winning the DFB cup, or by Schalke winning the CL.)
  25. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

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    Thanks for telling me the first paragraph. As for England's coefficient being hurt by having lesser clubs compete, it doesn't matter too much as long as England remains ahead of Spain. The most recent complete season when Spain did better than England was 2006-2007 which will drop out when 2011-2012 starts. Including this season so far, England is over 4 points ahead of Spain from 2006-2007 to 2010-2011 and and the last season that Spain gained more points on England than the current gap was 1995-1996.

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