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Evaluate the Backe-Soler era

Discussion in 'New York Red Bulls' started by tigersoccer2005, Nov 9, 2012.

  1. tigersoccer2005

    tigersoccer2005 Member+

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  2. lkgf09

    lkgf09 Member

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    Great first year because it followed the disaster of 09. Disappointment in the playoffs but at that point I thought we had something to build on.

    2011 was incredibly frustrating. Stupid roster management for that year with the Gold Cup and all that.

    2012 regular season was probably the best of the three but not as successful as 2010 because other teams in the East were a lot better.

    2 incredibly disappointing playoff losses. This team couldn't get hot at the right time and couldn't be consistent enough during the regular season to compete for the Shield.

    Soler put the pieces together well. Most of his moves worked. Not many trades were busts (maybe only the Le Toux one). I won't pin Marquez on him because that decision was made from above him.

    Overall 3 years of underachieving. They had their time and now we move on.
     
  3. Idolg1982

    Idolg1982 Member

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    Id give Backe a B. He did get the team into the playoffs all 3 years.

    Soler a D. He only had 1 great aquestion and that was signing Lidpere. He traded arguably one of the best and most consistent players in the league for Dax. He brought in Marquez, Miller, 6+ keepers, and players such as Solie, Cahil, Le Toux who were all played out of position.
     
  4. defendyourself

    defendyourself Member

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    They both would get C+ from me. Made the team more stable with constant playoff appearences, but both had a couple major errors that set the team back. Soler did not do a good job adding athletes to the team and in a league as physical as the MLS having some pace and power is useful. However the Pearce trade was brilliant. Backe always got us in the playoffs, but his subbing and his ability to alienate some of our players (especially younger guys) was poor. Jason Kreis had Luis Gil benched for a while when he was developing and nothing but positive things heard from Gil. Where the Matt Kassel, and Agudelo have nothing but bad things to say about Backe
     


  5. iced1776

    iced1776 Member+

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    Backe was consistently a B-/C+, Soler changed wildly every year. I'd give him a B in 2010, D in 2011, and A in 2012.
     
  6. theENFORCER

    theENFORCER Member

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    I'd flip those ratings.
    Soler has done a really good job at getting talent into the club. He did make some bad moves but so does every MLS GM, I also can't fault him for the Marquez signing as well. Talent is not our problem but coaching is. Backe fails to find chemistry, fails to stick with lineups that do work, plays players out of their position, makes bizarre changes, has love affairs with some awful players and he's not the guy that installs discipline in his team. A real coach wouldn't take the shit Marquez has been giving us a LONG time ago.
     
  7. GMangs

    GMangs Red Card

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    I don't know how anyone could give Backe a B or even a C. This was suppose to be the most talented team ever put together. They struggled during the regular season limping into the playoffs and had three first round exits. Have not won a home playoff game in three tries at RBA. He failed terribly. So he gets a failing grade.

    Soler did better, but never fixed the defense and had too many guys that play the same role. C+/B-
     
  8. theENFORCER

    theENFORCER Member

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    Our defense was generally poor for the season but we did have the pieces there and I'd put the blame on Backe. First and foremost, Backe started Miller for half of the season despite being constantly the worst player on the side for the past two seasons.. Once Miller was replaced did we start to see better defensive units.

    Second, the only reason Backe made a change into the backline was injuries and it paid off as the replacements were much better than the starters. Remember before the NER and LA games how it seemed everyone was hurt and Backe was forced to start Barklage and Ruthven? Do you remember how both of them played great and we had two shutouts in those games and had some great defensive performances on that 5 game win streak? I remember our defense leaking 3+ goals a game before that stretch.. But of course once his boys got healthy both of them eventually found the bench for far inferior players. It's really a shame that Barklage was benched for Lade late in the season as Barklage was great when healthy and it's a shame that Ruthven got demoted to holding traffic cones in practice.. Ruthven was pretty damn good for his first few appearances in the MLS and performed much better than Marquez has ever performed for us. Look at LAG they started a rookie in Meyers for the postseason and it paid dividends for them and Meyers even struggled early in the season for them!

    When our backline didn't have Miller or Marquez in the lineup they were generally okay. When they had Barklage in the lineup without Miller or Marquez in the lineup we were generally a pretty good backline..

    Pearce, Conde, Hulk, Barklage, Ruthven, Keel, and Lade are solid group of defenders tbh.. All blame goes to Backe.
     
  9. Metrosuccess

    Metrosuccess Member

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    I have been saying all year long Backe is Clueless. His choice of using his ass kissing favs vs better players has hurt this team all year long. Soler gave himthe talent with limitless payroll and Backe did not utilize it. Soler a B, Clueless a D-...... Clueless lostythe lockerroom a long time ago and it shows up now. Didn't the French Nationals boycott their coach? Pitiful player leadershi from Henry and Rafa as far as I am concerned. Why play Le One? Because Henry was his French buddy? Why play Lade at RB when overcommits all game long? Why dress, never mind play Miller? Why not play Conde and others in their best position? I can go on and one,but I am closing book on this sad chapter of my 17th season with these guys. In some ways Charles Stillitano might have been our bes GM. How sad ....
     
  10. tigersoccer2005

    tigersoccer2005 Member+

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    Regarding Backe falling in love with players---this guy had a nose for the underachieving!
    At one time or another he had irrational "coaching crushes" on: Ballouchy, Miller, The Statue

    The one good thing about the end of the Backe era is that perhaps now our development academy players will actually have the chance to play. Backe's aversion to using younger american players was legendary. Yes he did indeed use guys like Lade and Barklage but that was only when his hand was forced--he never actually invested in developing his younger guys or viewing them as "projects." If they weren't up to par from day 1 then that's it--they would either get sent to the bench, get traded, or get released.


    DeBontin, Roxburgh, possibly McAllister
    This organization will fail as long as it keeps thinking that in order to have success they need to just clone Europe. No coach without American experience has ever had success in this league. I can't believe Red Bull is falling into the same trap Toronto FC has fallen into!!
     
    RedBullFootball repped this.
  11. theENFORCER

    theENFORCER Member

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    ^^
    I wouldn't say we are in the same situation as TFC. Let's not forget that we still managed to make the postseason with an incompetent coach and in terms of talent we are probably on top of the league.

    Even if we can get a competent coach and even if we retain our roster without making any moves we'll be in a great position next year to win some trophies.
     
  12. iced1776

    iced1776 Member+

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    Its funny that you mention a lack of focus on youth players as a downfall of the Backe regime then bring up Toronto, considering one their main issues this year was relying too heavily on young players and developing a synergy with their academy system. You also forgot to mention Ream, Agudelo, Dax, and Cooper (ok he's not that young) as Americans who either sparked or revitalized their careers under Backe.

    You're 100% right that thinking you can just bring a European mentality to MLS and stomp all over everybody is a proven recipe for disaster, but given that MLS is a salary capped league with a lot of player movement through trades it is difficult to justify holding on to players that may or may not be starting quality a few years down the line. I think we have some of those kind of guys in Ruthven, Pallson, maybe Hertzog too, so we'll see what the new regime does with guys like them.
     
  13. kokoplus10

    kokoplus10 Moderator Staff Member

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    We made the playoffs 3 seasons in a row after being a doormat for the league. That's good.

    They had lots of money and a DP magnet club to collect LOTS of great individual talent, but they didn't win anything. That's bad.

    Final Grade: B-
     
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  14. RedBullFootball

    RedBullFootball Member

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    With the talent he had, I think I could have gotten RB to the playoffs every year. It's MLS, 50% of the teams make it. Your bar is set VERY low if you consider that any sort of accomplishment. Please reevaluate your grade and get back to us with a revision. Thanks.

    Backe gets a D+ from me. A clear underachiever with the group of players he had.
     
  15. RedBullFootball

    RedBullFootball Member

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    B-??

    Okay, how would you grade Ben Olsens job this season? A+++++++++++++++? If Hans gets a B- with the players he had, Olsens grade would have to be off the charts.
     
  16. iced1776

    iced1776 Member+

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    I think you're overrating the quality of the rosters Backe has had to work with, just because we have Henry doesn't mean we're the Yankees. Even looking at the DP's he's had to work with, one was a keeper for half a season, another just arrived mid season out of shape, and another will go down as one of the worst signings in the club's history. Our 2011 roster especially is very overrated, Agudelo and Ballouchy were our best players off the bench and the talent dropped off significantly past them...

    Backe has the best winning record in the clubs history and won the eastern conference in 2010, I don't think its fair to jump straight to D/F just because he failed to win a Cup. He had his faults and the fact that he didn't make it to a conference final is a reflection of that, but taking an objective look at our squads compared to the rest of the league I think a B- rating is fair.
     
  17. RedBullFootball

    RedBullFootball Member

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    A defense that has been horrible. A quality of road soccer that has been horrible. No playoff series victories. Musical chairs line ups. Suspect roseter choices. Never competing for the shield. Terrible in US Open Cup play. No consistency. Terrible use of subs. All with better quality players than opponents in most games.

    ='s B-? Its your score card I suppose.

    Man my fellow fans have very low expectation from their club. I guess that makes sense after 17 years of incompetance and underacheivment.

    My opinion is that fans should expect more than the above from a team. Not some mentally weak combination of players that disintegrate when the matches start to count.
     
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  18. RedBullFootball

    RedBullFootball Member

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    How many wins did it have when it counted?
     
  19. iced1776

    iced1776 Member+

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    An entertaining, possession oriented attacking style that made us one of the highest scoring teams in the league, a fantastic home record, Eastern conference title in 2010, put the likes of Ream and Agudelo on the USMNT radar.

    I'm not saying he's perfect or even great, but considering that I don't agree that our squad is significantly more talented than most other playoff (that's the key word here) teams, he wasn't a total abomination either. He had his strengths, and he had his weaknesses, which is why I'm not giving him an A or an F, he's somewhere in between. I'm glad he's gone because its obvious that his major downfall, the inability to organize the team defensively, was always going to prevent us from making a serious playoff run. But I don't think he should be chased out with torches and pitchforks either.
     
  20. RedBullFootball

    RedBullFootball Member

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    In between is a C and is average. You said a B was fair. That;s above average.

    He barely played Agudelo and you are giving him credit for helping him Nat team wise? Did he really? Didn' t Agudelo request to leave NY? And putting him and Ream on the US's radar? Why do we care about that? Why is that a plus and what did Hans have to do with it? Not sure how this even factors into the discussion.

    And yes, our home record was as good as our road record was bad. Still, how was our home record in the matches that actually mattered? That doesnt negate the success of us being great at home for most of the season, BUT you have to factor that in, no? Winning MLS Cup is about winning the few games each season that matter (See Dom Kinear quotes over the years).

    And Han's teams are choke artists when they matter.. Zero runs at the SS, MLS CUP or the US Open Cup after 3 years of trying.
     
  21. kokoplus10

    kokoplus10 Moderator Staff Member

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    Olsen might not make the final. We shall see.

    Anyway...any sort of hardware is some sort of A depending on the desires of the fanbase. MLS Cup, Open Cup, Champions League, Supporters Shield. Any of those could be seen as a major achievement and an A-, A, or A+.

    We didn't get any of those so that brings us into "B" territory. Now a B+ would be coming very close. A finals appearance for instance. Again, we didn't achieve even that.

    So Backe and Soler get a B- from me. They did some good things, but failed to live up to expectations even with such a big bank account at their disposal.
     
  22. iced1776

    iced1776 Member+

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    I think you're kind of freaking out over this a little too much... I gave him a B-, barely higher than a C, I don't think its worthy of a full blown uproar. I readily admit Backe's faults, but unlike most of the Metro hive mind I'm also willing to give him credit for things that he's done well.

    Have you ever thought that maybe such constantly hysterical reactions such as yours is part of what drives the club into a "win now" attitude?
     
  23. RedBullFootball

    RedBullFootball Member

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    On the flip side, dont you think that pathetically weak expectations like yours gives the club permission to keep sucking?

    Your reasoning is incredible weak. You like that Ream and Juan became part of the national team picture? Huh? In you short list of things you liked, THAT was one of them? This has what to do with Red Bull again?

    You mention our solid home record while completely ignoring our terrible road record. You dont even factor in the fact this this team lost every game that actually mattered AT HOME. You just IGNORE that in your arguments. Answer to them. Be intellectually honest.

    Instead, you turn to insulting me instead of refuting like some sort of bozo. If I am wrong, then explain/debate, but there is no need for the petchulant child routine. Which, not so concidentally, is the Big Soccer calling card for when they run out of answers to support their weak claims.
     
  24. RedBullFootball

    RedBullFootball Member

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    Also, if you chose to actually step up to the plate... Not only did we not win anything over the past 3 seasons under Hans; we didn't even compete for ANY OF THEM.

    I know you like to pretend having access to 3 DP's really doesnt really matter, so we can even put that aside. Is this not a terrible track record for the team? 0.0 times did Han's club show up on the radar of these championships.

    <insert your excitement over eastern conference success here>
     
  25. iced1776

    iced1776 Member+

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    You're still acting like I consider Backe a resounding success, when all I'm doing is recognizing that he wasn't a full blown catastrophe. I'm sorry that rating him a B- instead of a C has offended you.
     

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