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Extended time PK musings

Discussion in 'Referee' started by socal lurker, Nov 8, 2012.

Moderators: IASocFan, MassachusettsRef
  1. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

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    May 30, 2009
    Scenario: PK awarded as time runs out. Red #1 shoots the ball, GK saves it high up into the air, with back spin it is going back toward the goal line. Blue #1 is sprinting in from the side where he legally entered the PA after the PK was kicked, and clears the ball off the line. Ruling?

    LOTG simply says that the duration of the half is extended until the PK is completed. The I&G says nothing relevant, noting only that the PK ends when the referee decides it is complete.

    The ATR expands:
    Read literally, the red section would mean the defender is not permitted to clear the ball -- but nothing in the LOTG or I&G suggest that result. The language of the LOTG and I&G would indicate that an attacker could not play the ball, as that would clearly end the penalty kick and thereby the half. So, does the red really mean what it says? Or is it simply trying to tell us that the kicker and his teammates can't take a rebound shot? If it really means that the defender can't clear a ball, where does that come from, and what is the consequence -- players are still players and required to be on the field, and he didn't violate any precept of Law 14, so what would it be?

    I come down to the ATR not really meaning what it literally says, and that in any such (hopelessly unlikely) event, I woudl just end the half. Curious if anyone has any alternate analyses that should make me rethink this.
     
    soccersubjectively repped this.


  2. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator Staff Member

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    Call me crazy, but I've got a simple answer: don't listen to the ATR.

    There is no reason to announce that the penalty kick is "in extended time" (aside from the fact that the ATR tells you do so). It only creates problems for you. If someone asks how much time is left after the penalty kick is awarded, an evasive but truthful answer, such as, "this is pretty much it," would do the trick.

    If all players must remain on the field and the referee has no authority to do anything differently compared to any other penalty kick... what is the virtue of announcing that this one is "in extended time" and thereby creating difficult problems to adjudicate like the one you are bringing up?
     
    dadman, mtn335, GoDawgsGo and 2 others repped this.
  3. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

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    As I see it, the language in the ATR is backwards. The PK is no longer "being taken" once anyone other than the keeper plays it.
     
  4. campbed

    campbed Member

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    This seems pretty simple to me. Once the kick is taken, only the goalie can participate from that point on. Once ITOOTR the ball has spent any opportunity and energy to enter the goal, we are done.

    If somehow in your scenario, someone LEGALLY gets involved PRIOR to the ball being spent on it's way to the goal, AND they are not the goalie, my opinion would be re-kick. There is nothing in LOTG, ATR, I&G to explicitly support this, other than ATR 14.8 was not completed correctly, i.e. only goalie can participate after the kick.

    Interesting. And god bless trying to explain why you blew the whistle as everyone is screaming at you.
     


  5. refontherun

    refontherun Member

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    According to everything that I've heard, the PK is not over until the movement of the ball has ceased. Very confusing. What are we to do? Tell the players, "you have to stay on the field, and I can't keep you out of the PA, but you can't have anything to do with the kick after it's taken. It seems so contradictory. And, as in the OP, if a player does interfere, is it a retake? I like Mass' "spirit of the game" take on it. Noone needs to know we're in extended time except you and your ARs, but, from a bookworm, technically correct aspect, I really don't know.
     
  6. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

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    Gasp, sputter, ignore the ATR! Gasp!

    But seriously, that's pretty much where I end up as I don't think it means what it says . . . while I understand the intent behind the idea of telling players that time is up, which is to remove any issues as players try to play a rebound and reduce any encroachment issues. But I have always thought, like you, that it creates at least as many issues as it solves. (And extended time PKs are so rare, it seems little reason to have separate guidelines for them beyond clarity to referees that in determining when a PK ends, it always ends when touched by a player other than the GK.)
     
  7. Barciur

    Barciur Member

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    I don't understand the technicality of it, myself. You can add time at the end, and it's a "minimum", so it's in your power when to end the game. People should know that we're into stoppage time by then, and that's pretty much enough.
     
  8. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

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    Stoppage time and extended time are completely different things.

    Extended time is exclusive to PKs and applies only when a PK is awarded and time (including stoppage time) expires before the taking of the kick. The game is nonetheless extended until the moment the PK is complete and no further.
     
    dadman repped this.
  9. camconcay

    camconcay Member

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    Agreed - don't listen to THIS part of the ATR anyway - listen to the part about adding time.
     
  10. Barciur

    Barciur Member

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    Yeah I know that. My point is why do that kind of shananigans, if the referee has the authority to end the game whenever he wants at that point. Is it simply to force the ref to allow the penalty?
     
    billf repped this.
  11. blueboy

    blueboy Member

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    This is correct - after the kick is taken, no one other than the GK can touch the ball - once the kick is done, the half or game is over - to suggest that you do not announce the game is over and/or allow some other player to play the ball is CAUSING YOU, THE REFEREE, TO INFLUENCE THE OUTCOME OF THE GAME - this is against fair play, good sportsmanship, and should result in you being suspended or barred from refereeing again - if there is someway to get fairness back into this crazy world, it can start with you when you referee.
     
  12. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

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    That is what extended time means, yes. If the PK is called before the referee determines that time has expired, it must take place. The referee does not have the discretion to end the game once the PK is called (unless he determines that time expired before the PK foul occurred).
     
  13. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

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    :rolleyes:

    Sometimes the smileys available on this site are just inadequately expressive. . . . whatever . . .
     
  14. jayhonk

    jayhonk Member+

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    I've always thought the first thing you do in this situation is to send 22 players over to the benches.
     
    JimEWrld and soccerman771 repped this.
  15. 2wheels

    2wheels Member

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    The term "stoppage time" is not defined by Law 7 (The Duration ...), however, allowance for time lost is (see the interpretations, pp 98). This is referred to as "additional time." Law 14 (The Penalty Kick) provides the basis, pragmatic approach if you will, to take the penalty kick (see pp 42). The process of completion of the penalty kick is left to the referee (see page 43), as also stated by the OP. Methinks this is where the USSF-ATR muddles matters more than what it clarifies.

    To parse the first part of the statement first sentence, time is extended to include taking, or even re-taking the penalty kick until the procedure of taking (or re-taking) the penalty kick is complete. However, this extended time is not exclusively for the taking (or re-taking) of the penalty kick, this allowance for time lost could be added for any of the time lost only due to the several causes given (on pps 28 and 98).

    This same could be interpreted for the second sentence, the game is extended not only until the moment the penalty kick is complete, but for any of the several causes in the allowance of time lost situations.
     
  16. Law5

    Law5 Member+

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    Understand that a penalty kick (such as from the time of the first whistle for the foul to the time the ball is struck) is not a reason to add time under Law 7. Penalty kicks are a routine part of the game, even if they don't happen in every game. Therefore, time, including added time, could expire after a penalty is given but before it is taken.

    YMMV, but this has happened to me once. I simply told the players that time had now expired but we still had to take the kick, under the Laws of the Game. Everybody stood back to watch, other than the kicker and keeper. If somebody else wants to get in there and challenge for a ball that the keeper has batted away but hasn't controlled, then the kick is over, in my sovereign opinion. This sort of situation calls for complete confidence by the referee that he knows what is fair, even if that is at variance with what the coaches and/or players think.
     
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  17. campbed

    campbed Member

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    Wow, where is the dislike button.

    I guess blueboy wants Campbed, Law5, and socal lurker suspended/barred from refereeing again. That sounds wholly reasonable.

    Thank God for the internets.
     
  18. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

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    I either misunderstand what you're saying, or you are adding apples and oranges together.

    You appear to conflate allowance for time lost (yes, I used the colloquial "stoppage time" instead of the formal "allowance for time lost") and extended time. Extended time is exclusively for the taking (until properly completed) the PK. Exteneded time occurs only if time (including allowance for time lost) has already expired before the completion of the PK. (Since time has expired when extended time is used, there can be no additional allowance for time lost -- there is no time left to lose.)
     
  19. 2wheels

    2wheels Member

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    Not only the duration of each half extended, but also at the end of periods of extra time (also known as overtime, or overtime periods, in some circles). Also, time is extended in case the goal-keeper or the kicker needed to be substituted eligibly, or for any other causes where the referee would have added additional time. If players were asked to "leave the field of play" by the referee, this only creates an additional situation to handle.

    It seems that even though the referee's decision ends the match, that decision must have a thorough foundation in the laws, its interpretations, and any other advice or guidance, so as to reduce the chances of any protests about the outcome - misinterpretation of law, anyone?

    Recall the situation where the penalty kicker may play the ball forward where his/her teammate could legally kick a goal, and where the defenders could legally defend. The USSF-ATR (the one you gave in red) appears to not address such a legal-play situation.

    When there were further infractions that would have benefitted the penalty taker's team, the extended time keeps ticking. To reiterate, the penalty kick is determined to be completed [only] by the referee.
     
  20. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator Staff Member

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    Why?

    More importantly, on what grounds would you make such an order?
     
  21. soccerman771

    soccerman771 Member

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    I would only send 20. You know, keep a pk taker and a keeper.
     
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  22. campbed

    campbed Member

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    No, no , that is all wrong.

    22, then you can Abandon and go home!
     
  23. billf

    billf Member+

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    What you'll learn after hanging out here a while is that regardless of the common sense and simple answer to a particular issue, someone, and I am not saying that's what Social lurker is doing, will parse and analyze every single syllable of something in the ATR as if it is a sacred text holding hidden meaning. Read the ATR, understand what it's getting at, and then do what's right. This is something unique to Americans and may be why the nhfs and NCAA books are so detailed and specific.
     
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  24. JimEWrld

    JimEWrld Member

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    I have to agree with Law5 on this one. If I couldn't mask it as stoppage time (some leagues and most tournaments do not permit it) I would level with the players and tell them that this is between the GK and kicker. Enjoy the show.
     
  25. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

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    While I am certainly capable of over parsing, I hope that when over parsing the tree, I always get back to the forest in terms of ultimate application, even if there is some distraction along the way.

    In this case, as I've said, I don't think the ATR really means what it says (and it not the only place that, the languge is less precise than ideal), and I was wondering if I was missing something. I am persuaded by what two wheels that I was missing at least one tree when I underestimated the reason to tell players -- I did not considert that (the extremely rare) pass to a teammate is no longer an option for the kicker, as the PK would end when the teammate kicked the ball. And that is not a call I would want to sell.
     
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