1. Save 40-80% on great soccer jerseys. Shop today at BigSoccer Shop!

German National Team News & Discussion Thread - EURO 2012 & Beyond [R] II

Discussion in 'Germany: National Teams' started by Hendrik, Dec 31, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Hendrik

    Hendrik Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2005
    Location:
    Deutschland
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Country:
    Germany
    continue here
     


  2. Cris 09

    Cris 09 Trololololo

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2004
    Location:
    Westfalenstadion
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Country:
    Germany
    Hendrik...? What happened? Came back from a new year's eve party early and can't sleep so you decided to do some clean-up on BS instead? :D
     
    odd1234, Hendrik and Dhajj repped this.
  3. Dhajj

    Dhajj Member+

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2010
    Location:
    San Antonio
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Country:
    Germany
    No worries we will have ridiculous amount of talent, we will be big favorites and we will destroy teams all the way to the semis...

    Then loew will take over from there and screw it up ;)

    He'll shit his pants as usual and over smart himself.....
     
  4. MatthausSammer

    MatthausSammer Member+

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2012
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Country:
    Germany
    I'll get debate started with this; we need a strikerless formation.
     
    bayern15 and odd1234 repped this.


  5. Rosebud

    Rosebud Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2012
    Location:
    Chicago, IL, USA
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Country:
    Germany
    While I agree that we should develop one, in fact I've posted a few different versions in the previous thread, I still would prefer we start Klose if he's healthy by the time we get to Rio.

    As for Jogi, I'm not sure if this is because I know we fans have no choice but to give him one more chance, but maybe he's learned that adjusting to limit your opponents strengths doesn't require conceding your own.
     
  6. Kirsten19

    Kirsten19 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2008
    Location:
    Newport Beach, CA
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    It doesnt mean we can continue this scarce wtih strikers. Clubs/DFB still needa find a better way to develop the German strikers in order to give us more options

    Now, we are forced to play a strikerless formation ONLY because we dont have a decent striker. But what happen if the strikerless formation doesnt work (afterall, we're not Barcelona)???? Whats the alternative?



    I also see many weaknesses in a strikeless formation, so for the DFB, it may not be as good as some of u may have thought. Against Holland, Loew played a 4-6-0, but it eneded up as a failure and i think not being direct, no aerial threat, circuitous and too soft are some of the obvious problems with a 4-6-0 with the players we have.
     
  7. Vasu

    Vasu Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2009
    Country:
    Germany
    Whether we go for a strikerless formation or not, Loew needs to decide quickly on either route, because either way, and especially if we're going to for no strikers, we're going to need a lot of practice with the system. For Spain, it works so well because they've got a huge bunch of world class midfielders. Xavi getting man-marked? Let Alonso take over. Alonso not on form? Iniesta to the rescue. We have just Schweinsteiger and perhaps Kroos, and that just doesn't match up to the standard, so we need to fine tune the system to work with our players, and that needs to start now, if ever.
     
  8. Kirsten19

    Kirsten19 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2008
    Location:
    Newport Beach, CA
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    false 9 is a stupid idea, when u are full of skillful, "soft" midfielders and no one can execute. Spain have more scoring options, but we dont

    Oezil isnt scoring, Mueller just stays on the flank, Goeze wont shoot unless he dribbles pass all defenders

    U need someone who can execute. All this short passes n one-two, is glamorous. but without someone who plays hard, knows how to excute, can provide aerial threat n allrounded game, our offense will be very predictable n one-dimensional.

    "I remember watching Müller, Kroos and Khedira sweeping the ball around the box from one corner to the other, and all I was thinking was "Almer isn´t that good, just ********in shoot on target boys"

    Tiki Taka with all its foreplay and no ********ing will kill me off. I do not think German fans will like this.
     
    s7kru and Capt.Tsubasa repped this.
  9. Kirsten19

    Kirsten19 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2008
    Location:
    Newport Beach, CA
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Kehdira, Kroos, Goetze and Ozil kept passing it to each other on 79 minutes in their own little game with no movement. Who wants to watch this crap?

    I don't like our tiki taka style

    I remember watching Müller, Kroos and Khedira sweeping the ball around the box from one corner to the other, and all I was thinking was "Almer isn´t that good, just ********ing shoot on target boys!!!!"

    Tiki Taka with all its foreplay and no ********ing will kill me off. I do not think German fans will like this
     
  10. ForeverRed

    ForeverRed Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2005
    Location:
    NYC
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Country:
    Germany
    Who cares what German fans want. I want what's best for the team and the players.
     
    Dhajj repped this.
  11. Kirsten19

    Kirsten19 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2008
    Location:
    Newport Beach, CA
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    I m not even sure if thats good for the team and the players. 4-6-0 has its pros and CONS. Its not as perfect as everyone here wants it to be. We played a strikeless formation against holland and i think that experiment was failure

    It applies to Barcelona, but it doesnt mean we have the same personnel n team chemistry(which they've developed since the age of 7/8).

    And a short term solution in 4-6-0, doesnt mean we can continue this scarce wtih strikers. Clubs/DFB still needa find a better way to develop the German strikers in order to give us more options

    Now, we are forced to play a strikerless formation ONLY because we dont have a decent striker. But what happen if the strikerless formation doesnt work (afterall, we're not Barcelona)???? Whats the alternative?

    U still need quality strikers in the roster. Thats the fact, and we cant lie to ourselves.
     
  12. ForeverRed

    ForeverRed Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2005
    Location:
    NYC
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Country:
    Germany
    I don't think the Netherlands game would have turned out any different regardless of the formation, it was a meaningless friendly no one wanted to participate in.

    And of course the "strikerless" formation isn't a magic bullet, it's an idea you need to practice and develop like anything else. We have the crop of players to try something like that though which would be playing to our strengths and that's what football is all about isn't it? Doesn't mean you deprive yourself of other options but you've got to venture outside your comfort zone every now and then.

    I don't think anyone is asking to copy Spain/Barca for the sake of it which is probably the big misconception here but that's the development of the game tactically as well as the emergence of talent in German football, it's readymade for it.

    At the end of the day it's about trying, there's no harm in it. Not like there's anything to lose.
     
    Dhajj and MatthausSammer repped this.
  13. Kirsten19

    Kirsten19 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2008
    Location:
    Newport Beach, CA
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    A more realistic solution for the long term is to give more chances to young strikers. That opens up all possibilities

    Im VERY VERY SURPRISED that ALL people here expected 4-6-0 works for us. What if it doesnt? Without striker, can we play 4-5-1 or even 3-5-2 which Italy played and worked very well against 4-5-1 during 2012 Euro? How many team can win all the way with just one formation?

    And our junior NTs needa play 4-6-0 too? Because i remember Loew and the assistant coach said youth NTs should play the same system as the senior's

    I m very concerned as one-striker formation is actually an obstacle to young German strikers' development, as teams prefer foreign strikers or strikers with more expereince. Now without striker?

    Coming through, i see some serious potential in Ducksch, Yesil, Fullkrug, Philip Hofmann, Davie Selke, Timo Werner and co. Hope one of them will breakout and we'll keep options opened.
     
  14. Kirsten19

    Kirsten19 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2008
    Location:
    Newport Beach, CA
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    No it doesnt play to our strength

    It looks better on paper. Thats it. It may not work because there are some serious problem with 4-6-0 if we dont have the personnel (do we have a prolific false 9 like Messi?) or team chemistry

    Everything is hypothetical, it looks better on paper then people all say "let's go for 4-6-0"! Please, u need someone to execute. Oezil, Goetze, Kehdria, Kroos and Schweinsteiger?

    Without a striker, 4-6-0 all the way? Any team can win all the way without any formation alternative?

    We are playing Tiki Taka enough, and now even without a striker?

    Many question marks there

    Kehdira, Kroos, Goetze and Ozil kept passing it to each other on 79 minutes in their own little game with no movement. Who wants to watch this crap?

    I remember watching Müller, Kroos and Khedira sweeping the ball around the box from one corner to the other, and all I was thinking was "Almer isn´t that good, just ********ing shoot on target boys!!!!"

    Tiki Taka with all its foreplay and no ********ing will kill me off. I do not think German fans will like this
     
  15. MatthausSammer

    MatthausSammer Member+

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2012
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Country:
    Germany
    First, this debate would be over if we had a quality young striker that fits the system. Since we don't, it isn't. Also the Netherlands friendly was a tainted experiment if I ever saw one. I have to disagree with Kirsten's statement about not having finishers who can "execute", and we certainly have more of them than freaking Spain post-Villa. We have Reus and Schürrle, who are both very direct, to-the-point wingers that like to shoot, especially Schürrle. Kroos is not afraid to take shots from distance and is extraordinarily potent at it. We've even started to see Özil become more direct, as shown by the fact he has almost as many goals for the first half of this season as he did the whole of last season; 11 to 13. Götze is beginning to come into his own as well, though. I absolutely concur a half-decent prospect would be great, but we have to work with the options put to us, and that's Gomez vs Strikerless, with Klose fading out. Although didn't Schürrle play as a pure forward for Mainz? Anyways, Germany is not playing tiki-taka, Kirsten, I'm not certain where you get that impression. Or where you get the impression the German offence is ineffective; 4 goals against Sweden, another 4 against Greece, which had limited everyone up until that point to 0-1 goals, etc.
     
    ForeverRed repped this.
  16. Kirsten19

    Kirsten19 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2008
    Location:
    Newport Beach, CA
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Wait, as i said, everything is hypothetical. 4-6-0, with our personnel(clinical enough?) n team chemistry( Spanish from Barcelona have played together everyday at the same club since a very young age) , what are the pros and cons?

    U gotta be honest to urself. Its it all that great, no weakness?

    Everything is hypothetical, it looks better on paper then people all say "let's go for 4-6-0"! Please, u need someone to execute. Oezil, Goetze, Kehdria, Kroos and Schweinsteiger?

    Without a striker, 4-6-0 all the way? Any team can win all the way without any formation alternative?

    We are playing Tiki Taka enough, and now even without a striker?

    U gotta answer some of the questions. I still think 4-6-0 is JUST A LAST RESORT AS WE DONT HAVE A DECENT STARTING STRKER
     
  17. Kirsten19

    Kirsten19 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2008
    Location:
    Newport Beach, CA
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Too much TV games guys,

    In FIFA 2013, maybe i'll play all the midfielders as they have higher rating n bench Gomez just becuase his overall rating is not over 80, where the others are.

    But in real football, it doesnt work this way. 4-6-0 doesnt automatically mean its good for our team just becoz its good on paper and we can play Goetze, Kroos, Reus, Mueller, Khedira nad Schweinsteiger at the same time. It has its pros and cons and it may or may not work for us.

    SO i think the best solution is to develop young strikers n give us more options.

    If a the strikerless formation doesnt work as well as a 4-5-1 or a 3-5-2 even (Italy played 3-5-2 during Euro 2012 and was a success imo), u gotta put Mario Gomez or even Kiessling there.

    If 4-6-0 doesnt work, whats the alternative when we have no decent starting striker? 4-6-0 without any second formation alternative? Will that be predictable too?

    I agree Schurrle can finish, but neither Schuerrle nor Reus is good at "first-touch finishing" and is not an aerial threat at all.

    Some may argue, "the current German system do not need aerial threat at all" .......But if u want a more complete offensive game, we needa have one/two aerial threat out there to make our attack less predictable and give us more dimensions.
     
  18. MatthausSammer

    MatthausSammer Member+

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2012
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Country:
    Germany
    I'm going to go through your questions one by one.

    It has serious weakness, but, like I said, you got to work with what you have. If our players are unable to crack the team in front of them, the players become stagnant, running around like headless chickens. I still believe it is our best option ATM.

    I've already answered the "execute" question. Reus/Schürrle are very direct wingers ready to execute and shoot at a moment's notice, Kroos is not shy to take a shot, and Götze/Özil are beginning to show measurable improvement.

    Spain have won multiple trophies with the exact same playing style they played for four years. And plus we have Klose and Gomez and another prospect likely who can come off the bench and play alternatively.

    Again, we are not playing Tiki-Taka. Don't understand where that's coming from, exactly, to be honest.
     
  19. Kirsten19

    Kirsten19 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2008
    Location:
    Newport Beach, CA
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
     
  20. MatthausSammer

    MatthausSammer Member+

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2012
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Country:
    Germany
    I never argued that a strikerless formation would be automatically good, but I do believe it needs a better shot than a pointless friendly against the Netherlands in which suddenly everyone was conveniently "injured", and the rest were extraordinarily unmotivated.

    That's a good long-term solution for after the World Cup 2014, but that ain't helping us at the moment. Unless you believe that Fullkrug, Ducksch, etc. have a refined enough game for the international stage, which I doubt you believe.

    All I am arguing for is at least a genuine chance, if they continue to turn up like the Netherlands, then we'll be able to fall back on Gomez or Klose or Kießling.

    The alternative is Gomez or Klose or perhaps Kießling. We have other options to explore if this doesn't work.

    I suppose you are correct on your last two points, but aerial ability is ultimately expendable if the other factors work well. Plus, we still have solid options on the bench in Klose or Gomez if Loew feels the need to inject that in. But for all Gemany's crosses against Italy, we were left with not even a semi-dangerous header, which leads me to believe Germany doesn't know how to utilize aerial ability even when we have it.

    Also, Gomez is wicked dangerous on FIFA 13, what're you talking about? :p
     
  21. Dage

    Dage Member+

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2008
    Location:
    Berlin
    Club:
    Borussia Mönchengladbach
    Country:
    Germany
    The German team has one of the finest strikers since decades, the strikerless formation is a more or less a wet dream of some of you, that isn't executed well by a single team except Barcelona who may be able to play any formation and win games.
     
  22. Rosebud

    Rosebud Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2012
    Location:
    Chicago, IL, USA
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Country:
    Germany
    Quote from the other thread:

    The whole point of switching to the strikerless formation is to accommodate our best players in a harmonious lineup. The whole point of my formation is that it works best for everyone, Kroos comes forward from the tip of a midfield trio, Ozil gets to drift around with as little defensive responsibilities to suck him back into position as possible. Mueller and Reus get to run into central areas that aren't crammed because of Ozil's movement. Schweini gets to have a great midfield around him with Khedira providing physicality and vertical running and Kroos to sit further forward and be his lieutenant, letting Schweini just focus on spraying the ball around and only moving forward when the situation is perfect for it.

    In theory it should highlight the strengths of our most talented 11. Now the question is if they can really learn it and master it by the next world cup, which I think they can, but I'd still want Klose along for the ride in case they can't.
     
    MatthausSammer and ForeverRed repped this.
  23. Kirsten19

    Kirsten19 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2008
    Location:
    Newport Beach, CA
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Too much TV games guys,

    In FIFA 2013, maybe i'll play all the midfielders as they have higher rating n bench Gomez just becuase his overall rating is not over 80, where the others are.

    But in real football, it doesnt work this way. 4-6-0 doesnt automatically mean its good for our team just becoz its good on paper and we can play Goetze, Kroos, Reus, Mueller, Khedira nad Schweinsteiger at the same time. It has its pros and cons and it may or may not work for us.

    SO i think the best solution is to develop young strikers n give us more options.

    If a the strikerless formation doesnt work as well as a 4-5-1 or a 3-5-2 even (Italy played 3-5-2 during Euro 2012 and was a success imo), u gotta put Mario Gomez or even Kiessling there.

    If 4-6-0 doesnt work, whats the alternative when we have no decent starting striker? 4-6-0 without any second formation alternative? Will that be predictable too?

    I agree Schurrle can finish, but neither Schuerrle, Goetze nor Reus is good at "first-touch finishing" and is not an aerial threat at all.

    Some may argue, "the current German system do not need aerial threat at all" .......But if u want a more complete offensive game, we needa have one/two aerial threat out there to make our attack less predictable and give us more dimensions.

    Everything is hypothetical, it may look fine on paper, but real life football doesn't work that way. People here completely forget the weaknesses of a 4-6-0 formation and just highlighting the advantages/strengths.

    Who is able to execute? Do we have a midfielder who is a good "first-touch finisher"? Aerial threat which give us a different dimension in our offense? Too indirect and circuitous? Do we have the personnel and team chemistry of Barcelona?

    We are already playing rather indirect and circuitous, tiki taka type of football. Tiki taka With all this foreplay n no actual ********ing actually pisses me off! We often see Khedira, Oezil, Podolski and Etc passing to each other for 79 minutes in their own little game, hate to see this.

    The best solution is to Find a successor of Klose. Mario Gomez, Kiessling or even Nils Petersen/Polter/Lasogga/Yesil/Fullkrug/Ducksch needs more chances.

    Trust me, to win it all, we need an alternative other than a strikerless formation.
     
  24. SirManchester

    SirManchester Member+

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2004
    Country:
    Germany
    Why are we deeming the strikerless formation a failure after just one match that was a total trial?

    It's a new philosophy and needs time to be nurtured.

    We have plenty of players who can get us goals. It's scarce in theory because they're all young but it makes sense to believe that when everyone has the freedom to play to their best abilities, things will click.

    This fear of the formation is abstract at best, a refusal of the new because it is new, not because we somehow believe it will fail. It's just childish to expect things to work right away or so quickly.

    Löw hasn't even begun to implement the tactic nor does he understand it fully yet but our way of playing and not capitalizing of our chances IS NOT indicative of how we would play a strikerless formation. We have established already why that's been happening - particularly because there is an inner conflict of styles. We have attack minded and technical players who are bursting into life, who want to combine and play creatively but are stuck in a formation that is very specific and hinders it to a large degree. Combined with their inexperience it's a recipe for these inefficient results we are seeing but it's NOT indicative of a larger problem attached to a strikerless formation. We haven't seen that yet. We haven't seen how the players would operate and how they would grow into their roles.

    The weaknesses are totally overstated because WE KNOW Müller, Reus, Götze, Özil, Schürrle will begin to score because they are already creating an incredible amount of chances. With time it will refine itself. Moreover, we would have Kroos on the field that would allow us tactical flexibility and bigger goal output. Part of the reason we struggle when we do is because we only know of one way to play in the 4-2-3-1 and when that's matched by opponents we don't know how to cope with it. It's the biggest weakness so far. A more flexible formation would allow us to adapt. Moreover it would change NOTHING else but the attack. Our defense would remain the same and we would have a re-enforced midfield.

    Aerial threat is overstated in today's game. We have defenders and midfielders who are good in the air and Müller is as well. We don't need a "towering" striker. We just need to practice set pieces, and that's it.
     
    MatthausSammer repped this.
  25. timh19

    timh19 Member+

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2011
    ''We'' ? It is just the troll Kirsten.

    I thought in the first half there were plenty of good moments with that strikerless formation. IN the second half, the players showed absolutely no desire to play football. They were just passing the ball sideways and backwards.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page