goalie handling the ball outside of the box

Discussion in 'Referee' started by babeldaob, Sep 24, 2006.

  1. babeldaob

    babeldaob Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2003
    I was at a boys u-12 game the other day and the goalie for one team accidentily picked up the ball outside of the box. Most of his body was within the penalty box but he reached across the line and picked it up. The referree blew the whistle and called a penalty kick, because half of the goalies body was in the box Is this correct? What are the FIFA rules on this? I thought it should be at least a direct free kick at the spot of the handball and if it was intentional (how could it not?) it would be a straight red (?).

    To add a bit of context, the goalie was not really under any pressure from the other team so looked more like an accident rather than a 'professional foul' type handball.

    Thanks!


  2. MasterShake29

    MasterShake29 Member+

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2001
    Location:
    Jersey City, NJ
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Country:
    United States
    Um, I'm not a ref, but how can the goalie be called for a PK for handball outside the box?

    The referee is a moron.

    As for a card, if there's no pressure it's certainly not red and maybe not even yellow. Just a free kick at the point of the touch.
  3. DualYellow

    DualYellow Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2006
    As a ref, I would award a direct free kick from the point of the foul outside the box. From what you described, and being U12, it most likely was a mistake and I would not card the keeper, especially with no pressure. For U12 games and below I will call the fouls, but I tend to go up to the offending player and educate him/her on what the foul was. In my expereience, this goes much farther and the same player doesn't commit the same fould again. This age is still learning.
  4. Ref Flunkie

    Ref Flunkie Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2003
    Location:
    New Hudson, MI
    If it was even CLOSE to having part of the ball on the line, I would likely not call anything and just tell the youngin' that he needs to be careful about the line. If the referee decides to call it, it is a DFK outside the area, not a PK (as others have said).


  5. macheath

    macheath New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2005
    Location:
    DC
    As has been said--if it was close to the line, and not really affecting play, then its trivial, and not a foul at this age--talk to the keeper and warn him. If the foul is called, its a DFK from the spot of the foul. A goalkeeper cannot be called for handling in the penalty area. And, of course, the location of his body is meaningless--it is the location of the ball. He could be entirely outside the area, except for having one hand on the ball which is on the line or fully in the area, and there's no foul. Conisderation of a red card only enters into the situation if it involves denying an obvious goal scoring opportunity to the opponents. Who's reffing these games??
  6. Ref Flunkie

    Ref Flunkie Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2003
    Location:
    New Hudson, MI
    People qualified to ref U-12 games. To be honest, I'm not at all surprised by this.
  7. Heartofmid

    Heartofmid Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2005
    Location:
    Acushnet
    I'm also wondering if this was an in-house rec game, since at the U12 level at these kind of games the keeper position is sometimes rotated, and you will often get a kid in there that is extremely unfamiliar with the position. I'm in agreement with the posters, DFK if it was really obvious, warning/explaintion if not. Absolutely no PK. If there was no pressure, there should be no card either.

    Macheath- I like the avatar
  8. Wreave

    Wreave New Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2005
    Location:
    Colorado Springs, CO
    There is no way a goalkeeper handling the ball can result in a PK.

    Simple logic (which apparently escaped the ref at the time): if the keeper is in the PA, he can handle the ball. If he's not in the PA, it can't be a PK.

    Now, yes, we all know it's the position of the ball, not the position of the keeper. The keeper can be in the PA, and the ball outside, and it's handling, as happened here, and it should have been a DFK from outside the area (or a warning if it were really close).

    What would have happened with this ref if the ball was inside the PA, but the keeper was outside the PA, reaching in to pick up the ball? Would he have given a DFK from outside the PA? :D
  9. Claymore

    Claymore Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2000
    Location:
    Montgomery Vlg, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Country:
    United States
    Same here. You're probably getting newly-minted refs at this age group, and they make mistakes like any other beginners. In this instance, I think the ref probably knew the law, but failed in the application (handling = DFK, but for whatever reason dedcided that if the goalie does it, it's a PK). It happens.
  10. BC_Ref

    BC_Ref New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2004
    Not sure if I agree with a warning in this context. For a keeper punt, no problem. I'll generally warn first and then call a foul if it is clearly outside.

    But for a pick-up, it either is a foul, or not. Can't really call it trivial in my mind. Having said that, absolute benefit of the doubt goes to the keeper (so must be clearly outside - 95%) since even a fraction of the ball being on/above the line is enough to turn it into a perfectly legal play.
  11. Bill Archer

    Bill Archer BigSoccer Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2002
    Location:
    Washington, NC
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Country:
    United States
    It would depend somewhat on the level of the game. In a tournament final with a couple of so-called "premier" teams you're pretty much obliged to give the offended team a DFK from the spot of the foul.

    Amongst less-skilled, Saturday moring house leagues teams, if it wan't absurdly egregious, I'd probably let it go with a verbal reminder and perhaps a word with the coach at the half.

    We're not traffic cops out there, trained to pounce and punish every trivial infraction. Context is crucial.

    As for the rule, it's simple. When the keeper is outside the area, he's just another player. No special priveleges apply, and no special penalties result.
  12. CDM76

    CDM76 Member+

    Joined:
    May 9, 2006
    Location:
    Socal
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Country:
    United States
    You say the keeper was "not really under any pressure". How far away was the closest attacker? How fast was the ball moving? Was the ball about to enter the penalty area or travelling parallel to one of the edges of the box? Had the keeper made a similar play earlier with a verbal warning or a kick awarded by the referee? Had the opposing keeper been charged with handling the ball outside the penalty area? Was this a tournament, club-level friendly or recreational league match?

    Assuming rec league, if I thought the keeper rushed to gather the ball in an attempt to avoid pressure, I would award the DFK at the location of the ball when the keeper illegally handled it. If the keeper was excited and scared and experienced a "brain cramp" on a ball he could have gathered legally a second later, I'd probably talk with the keeper and let him know that he could be called for a "hand ball" and that he should wait next time for the ball to enter the penalty area before handling it but allow him to play the ball out as if he had gathered it legally.

    Since your description infers there was no "obvious goalscoring opportunity", I can't imagine this deserving any type of card.

    As numerous posters have pointed out, it is totally irrelevant where the keeper is. In soccer, it's always about the location of the ball. The infraction would call for a DFK from the location of the ball when handled, not a PK.

    Unfortunately, here in the US, we are trained watching football and basketball where everything hinges on the player's feet being inside or outside the boundaries. That, to me, is the biggest problem with US soccer. Most of our U Little coaches and refs have never played the game.

    Your ref probably stressed under the pressure and reverted to some memory of playing basketball or football and what constitutes "in-bounds". Those misconception combine with the overwhelming need to "get the call right", which in most US sports means blindly following the rules, to result in "refereeus extremus rigiditis". It's very hard to adapt to Law 12's "in a manner considered by the referee" clause and when and how to apply advantage. The referee probably has little more experience as a referee than the keeper has as a keeper.

    Frustrating as all get out but not fatal. Hope it didn't ruin the match for the kids.

    Contact your local referee administrator and explain the call and your concern about its correctness. Don't bash the ref. Just let them know you thought there was a problem with the call and wanted to be certain you were on the same page with the referees.

    A good administrator will put out a "general" notice regarding clarification of the "interpretation" of the law.
  13. Brook

    Brook BigSoccer Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2001
    Location:
    Cleveland
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Country:
    United States
    Bill Archer-- "...trained to pounce and punish every trivial infraction." I thought you knew me better than that!
  14. njref

    njref Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2003
    Location:
    New Jersey
    I have seen this issue arise on fields with faint or confusing lines (especially artificial turf with 50 sets of different colored lines). I am more likely to give a keeper the benefit of the doubt in these cases.

    I can't speak for other places, but I would find this kind of mangled PK call in a U-12 travel game very surprising in the leagues I have coached/reffed in. OK, the refs in U-12 games are not superstars, but they are usually decent and know the rules, and have been reffing for a minimum of 2-3 years.
  15. Bill Archer

    Bill Archer BigSoccer Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2002
    Location:
    Washington, NC
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Country:
    United States
    Well. maybe not you......but I could tell you some stories.

    Seriously, back when I first took the classes, There was a guy I knew who was a policeman in the class with me.

    We were connected with a rather big club, and they started us both off with younger games and all of that. But then the assigner started moving the other guy up into higher level and/or older games while my progrwess was much slower. It sort of ticked me off, because I had a much broader soccer background than he did, and knew that I understood the game much better than he did.

    The difference was that "he had a whistle and he wasn't afraid to use it" as they say. His whole proessional life consisted of carefully watching for wrongdoing and "blowing the whistle". He was very comfortable in the role.

    Maenwhile, I was busy analyzing everything: was it relaly a foul? Was it trifling? Was that contact allowable in the context of what I'd allowed previously? On and on and on. I had to think about everything.

    Eventually of course, with exerience, my confidence grew and I became much more proficient. My freind, meanwhile, stayed exactly the same. I was working on creating a game, establishing a level of rapport with the participants, gaining their trust, setting boundaries, keeping a level field and a fair, safe game.

    He was still just blowing the whistle. His progress stagnated, and he eventually just quit, while I started getting calls for the bigger games, tournaments, all of that.

    I'd never suggest that cops can't be great refs. That would clearly be ridiculous. I'm just saying that in his case, he was never able to get beyond being a "pouncer and punisher" and as we all know it's a lot more complicated than that.
  16. JayJay4Pres

    JayJay4Pres New Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2003
    Location:
    909
    Club:
    DC United
    Country:
    United States
    Mistake by the ref on this one....

    as everyone else has said, DFK from the edge of the area/where the keeper handled the ball. I personally don't think I'd pull out a card, unless it was done to specifically take away a play on the ball by an attacker. Make it a ceremonial freekick, talk the keep real quick about why it was foul and move on.
  17. babeldaob

    babeldaob Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2003
    Thanks for the replies...i haven't been able to post in a while. As for added context it was a u-12 select game.....in eastern Oregon. So, it was more like a rec game.

    Anyway, I always thought it should be a fee kick at the spot of the handball, and certainly no card should have been given.

    As for the level of referees in this league, well, my 7 year old who has played since he could walk could ref better than all but 1 of the 'select/club' refs in the area. Seriously. Its sad too, because there are actually some pretty good players who get very confused each weekend about the actual rules of the game because they vary considerably depending on the ref!

Share This Page