NSR: "If you can't join them, beat them...literally."

Discussion in 'Bayern Munich' started by ForeverRed, Sep 6, 2011.

  1. SoccerMIGermany

    SoccerMIGermany Member+

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    Religion or science, the problem that we have is that only a fraction of people actually understand what's going on and try to work for the common good. In both cases the signal either gets jacked around by people who don't understand and get it wrong like a bad game of telephone or it gets hijacked by assholes who don't care what happens to everyone else as long as they get their own power and privilege.

    It's the institutions that grow up around both that become corrupt and are corrupted.
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  2. Lahmfan

    Lahmfan Member+

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    exactly! Thank you!!!
  3. Cris 09

    Cris 09 Trololololo

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    How do you corrupt science?
  4. Cris 09

    Cris 09 Trololololo

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    [​IMG]


  5. SoccerMIGermany

    SoccerMIGermany Member+

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    One of the more innocent ways: poor reporting of complicated scientific findings that lead to massive popular misunderstanding and poor policy decisions based on those findings.

    The less innocent ways: through control of funding and of the flow of information such that the people involved in the science are not able to see what is being done with their findings; or through regulatory capture and distortion of findings; or through corruption of research ethics.

    Science, especially Big Science, cannot be done without money and politics being involved.

    For example...
  6. Cris 09

    Cris 09 Trololololo

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    But that isn't science...is it? Science in Latin means "knowledge". Religion isn't knowledge, it is a belief. Poor reporting of science is really a guess, and if it is a "poor reporting", then it is incorrect knowledge.

    Just because someone says, "This is science", does not make it so.
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  7. SoccerMIGermany

    SoccerMIGermany Member+

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    Okay, if we are going with Latin definitions then 'religion' comes from 'religio' and it means something like 'binding together' -- the Roman state religion was about a contract with the gods and had nothing to do with belief at all. It was more of a science.

    And if you can't separate 'science' from the human institutions in which it is bound up, then saying that something is or is not science has about as much weight as saying that the people who do bad things in the name of religion are 'bad [fill in the name of the religion] ". The religious person makes the same argument that you do here -- e.g. that you aren't talking about religion, but about 'incorrect religion'.

    For the record, if you want to argue with what I'm claiming about science you probably need to argue with Thomas Kuhn and Paul Feyerabend more than with me. I'm just repeating their arguments.
  8. jadger

    jadger Member

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    all those quotes are from Old Testament. The OT is very much a history book of the Jews. The New Testament very much supercedes the OT in the viewpoint espoused. Why do you think Jesus wasn't liked by Jewish religious leaders?

    Eugenics and Social Darwinism are just a couple examples. Do I have to go into more detail about them? ;)
  9. Cris 09

    Cris 09 Trololololo

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    Science is the explanation of how something works or functions, not it's applications...that is my point.
  10. Cris 09

    Cris 09 Trololololo

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    Probably because they didn't buy the whole, "I got pregnant by God, I swear it wasn't the gardener..." argument that Mary presented to Joseph.

    You can try...
  11. jadger

    jadger Member

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    Well then religions is the explanation of how one should live their life, not the application.
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  12. jadger

    jadger Member

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    Well it was hard on her, back then they didn't have hot tubs or toilet seats so she couldn't blame them.
  13. Cris 09

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    Is it? "Don't sleep with your neighbor's wife or you'll go to hell." That's real science, isn't it? Basically, it is the "scare the shit out of you so you don't fuck up the little cool civilization we got going here." and not much else aside from the belief that there is something greater than yourself without any real way to prove it.

    You see, without religion, people will still be good or bad. Without science, we would just continue to make shit up as to why things function the way they do.

    While you can believe there is a God watching your every move judging you, you can be certain that rain is caused by droplets that have condensed from atmospheric water vapor and then precipitated.
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  14. ForeverRed

    ForeverRed Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes those are some brilliant virtues to live by.
  15. SoccerMIGermany

    SoccerMIGermany Member+

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    Your problem here is with particular religious tenets of a particular revealed religion, not with all religions or religion in general. It's kinda like hating all football because of Real Madrid ;)
  16. jadger

    jadger Member

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    The difference is you don't have to believe in Christianity, whereas science there is no difference if you believe in it or not, it is still there. Nowhere in Christianity does it say everyone has to believe in it. It says believers should try and convert others, it never says that everything in the bible is proven fact. That is why it is called faith.
  17. ForeverRed

    ForeverRed Moderator Staff Member

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    And that's why it should be kept out of schools. Full circle.
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  18. Cris 09

    Cris 09 Trololololo

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    Right, I'm pretty sure that was my original point. Science is not really able to be good or evil, whereas religion certainly can be.
  19. Cris 09

    Cris 09 Trololololo

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    I don't hate religion and I don't have a problem with any religion...and I am equally objective to all.
  20. jadger

    jadger Member

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    Schools are meant to shape our youth into good members of society, not just inundate them with facts. Children spend more time at school than at home, teachers are more influential on their impressionable young minds than their parents. Parents have the right to have their children educated the way they see fit.
  21. Cris 09

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    Are you saying that the only way this is possible is by allowing them to believe that it may have been possible that Noah's arc was an actual boat that saved all the animals and all of humanity just as it is possible that Saturn's interior is probably composed of a core of iron, nickel and rock (silicon and oxygen compounds), surrounded by a deep layer of metallic hydrogen, an intermediate layer of liquid hydrogen and liquid helium and an outer gaseous layer?

    C'mon, man...one is a fairy tale...the other is fact. One is religion, the other is science. Do you see what people are trying to say here?

    I tell you what, when I went to school...I went to learn facts...not listen to other people's opinions on why I should be a good and decent human-being.
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  22. Vasu

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    I can't believe BS finally delved into the whole religion vs science thing. I was beginning to lose faith in you guys. :p

    Well, as far as my take goes, religion is an institution that may have been set forward with the best of intentions, but since it is so easily corruptible, it has actually become so. Hell, even within the state; note that I say state, not country; that I live in, there are divisions not only by religion, but also by castes within the religion. Marriage has to be within the caste, there are rampant cases of female foeticide because of the "rule" that the woman's family has to pay a large dowry to the man's family before marriage etc. Basically a whole bunch of social evils that stem from religion.

    Add to that fake "babas" or godmen who perform cheap tricks and gain the following of the uneducated masses to profiteers who rely on religious fear to extort money in the name of exorcism or some other ridiculous religious procedure, and you have a society that somehow stands on the brink of utter chaos. There is actually a government endorsed reservation scheme that allows people of certain castes to have an easier way into schools and colleges. Ending discrimination by discrimination. :rolleyes:

    I'll make no bones about it. Religion, atleast the way it is where I live, is something that I hate. Belief in God is something that I'll put aside. Personally, I don't believe in God, but if you believe in some kind of creator I really don't care. But when the so-called words of your God start influencing public policy and disrupting my life, get it out of my face.
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  23. ForeverRed

    ForeverRed Moderator Staff Member

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    School is an environment of education, you said it. Make believe does not belong in an atmosphere that is supposed to nurture intellectual growth. Besides, what do you do about a diverse classroom with different ethnic and religious backgrounds? Come on. We're supposed to be past all this by now.
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  24. Dhajj

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    wow... i never looked at this thread before.. Ill just keep out ;)

    Ill stick with bitching about bayern and for bayern :p

    PS: I really came here for Honey BooBoo discussion.....
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  25. eissman

    eissman Member+

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    And while this is true, what they don't have a right to is passing off parenting onto their teacher.
    Parents matter. More than they know. Especially in the matters of Religious beliefs and politics. As a teacher I am constantly thwarting discussion involving either simply because it was something the student's parents believe in or decree at home.

    "I believe in Creation. Why the need to study evolution?" :rolleyes:

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