Israel/Palestine in the News, Part IV

Discussion in 'International News' started by JBigjake, Nov 20, 2012.

  1. tomwilhelm

    tomwilhelm Member+

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    They're bombing large buildings in densely packed cities. "Hey guys, run..." doesn't give you carte blanche to kill civilians.

    January 22nd. That's 2 months from now. Tail wags dog.

    See. Here's your problem. Not everyone who disagrees with you is interested in defending the asshats firing rockets into Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.

    I don't. I'm stating that Israel's response to provocation over multiple decades now has been to strike back with a combination of disproportionate force and active disinterest in the well being of Palestinian civilians.

    I won't strain this metaphor any further. The above discussion points are more interesting and less likely to be based on kneejerk emotion.


  2. ottawasportsfan

    ottawasportsfan Member

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    Both sides hold blame lets not act like this is all Israel's fault as for why there are so few who have died in Israel i think in part its because of the iron dome.
  3. tomwilhelm

    tomwilhelm Member+

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    I don't (act like it's all Israel's fault) and i agree (iron dome has been very effective).

    The fact that iron dome is successful isn't an excuse to keep on bombing liberally. It's a reason for Israel to reconsider its current level of violence, which is grossly out of proportion with the threat it addresses, in some part due to iron dome.
  4. yasik19

    yasik19 Moderator Staff Member

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    Jesus effing christ.... Tom claiming Palestinians are victims lying on the ground......I haven't such retarded statement in a long time. I guess it must be nice to be lying down and shooting thousands of rockets b/c you’re so helpless. Un********ingreal. And once again, just b/c your rockets don’t kill all the time, it doesn’t mean one should ignore them. What a stupid and naïve point of view.
    This is from 2009, but the story is the same.


  5. tomwilhelm

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    Is there not SOMETHING... some type of vaguely more sensible response to ineffectual rocket attacks... than the current bomb them back into the stone age strategy in which IDF just yesterday managed to kill 24 civilians in 24 hours.

    Ooh... I know! Invasion! That'll TOTALLY lead to fewer dead civilians on both sides.
  6. Tribune

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    Since you like to draw moral equivalencies, I'll ask you one: if you won a piece of land through an biased decision in court and the losing side would try to murder you in retaliation several times and, after failing, would still fire at you with a rifle from time to time, how "proportionate" your reaction would be?
    Shall I assume that if that person uses a Napoleon-era rifle which takes 10 seconds to load and can't hit a barnyard door from more than 100 yards and there's little risk of actual injury, you would just mind your business as usual?
  7. yasik19

    yasik19 Moderator Staff Member

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    1. Do you have a strategy?
    2. They are going for the rocket arsenals, which are located in densely populated areas.
    3. I haven't seen any invasion yet.
    4. Why doesn't Hamas store its rockets in some empty area? Wouldn't that be something a rational and just group do to protect the people it supposedly serves?
  8. odessit19

    odessit19 Member

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    13,0000 + rockets. I repeat 13,000+ rockets fired into a ridiculously small piece of land. How is that effing acceptable to ANYONE? People scream why does IAF bomb the crap out of that shithole called Gaza? Because as soon as IDF boots hit the ground, the whole bloody world will scream INVASION, OCCUPIERS, WAR and other brainless slogans.
  9. tomwilhelm

    tomwilhelm Member+

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    I'm not a nation. So maybe something is being lost in translation. Or maybe your point is just dumb. Not sure. But whatever. We understand. No one should speak out for civilians who are trapped in a siege zone.


    Why? Are they looking for advice? I think the solutions are all out there in a great deal of detail. They just don't want to compromise when settlements and aerial bombardment are a perfectly fine status quo.

    Right. That's why so many civilians are being killed. What's your point?

    Neither have I. Again... point?
    Why doesn't Hamas line up in formation with muskets on the town green?

    The IDF can't blame Hamas for IDFs killing of civilians. Well, they can try. But the fact remains that they killed 8 times more Palestinian civilians in ONE DAY than the total number of Israelis killed by those rocket attacks.[/quote]
  10. Tribune

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    Maybe you should not make stupid moral equivalencies then.
    Moishe and odessit19 repped this.
  11. Mr. Conspiracy

    Mr. Conspiracy Member

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    Again, I have posted a timeline of events and it is clear that this recent escalation is not due to Israeli aggresion as you put it, rather it started by hamas when the emir of qater visited and they decided to put on a show and launched hundreds of rockets at Israel. What did Israel pay the emir of qatar to go there and convince hamas to attack them? o_O
  12. tomwilhelm

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    I apologize for dumbing it down for you. Clearly, you're smart enough to understand the concept of disproportionate response.
  13. Stud83

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    That's a good point, but the logic behind why this happens is fairly obvious.

    Israel's priorities:

    1. Israel's citizens
    2. Israel's land
    3. Other Israel's interests
    4. Well being of Palestinian civilians

    Israel is always going to take care of the first 3 priorities even if it negatively impacts #4. Often times these priorities have a direct negative consequence on #4.
  14. Mr. Conspiracy

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    As has been already stated, this is where hamas hides their weapons. It is also where they are firing their rockets and missiles from. The point at which they fire the weapons makes that area a viable military target. Afterall, it is being used as a weapon and storage area for weapons thus it is a military target. It is up to hamas at that point to move innocents out of the way, but as we saw in the previous thread hamas doesn't want to do that. If they did they would lose a huge propaganda program.

    I get that, I also don't disagree that likud will use this in the election, but I do find it less then credible to say this current escalation is a ploy by them to win election. Not when the timeline I show clearly indicates that hamas began this round and it centered around the emir's visit.
    Well this is where we differ. When you are attacked, you don't respond with proportionate force. You don't fight or win a war that way. That is just military concept that goes back to day one of human fighting. Where does proportionate force in war waging even come from? Has Israel overreacted to issues in the past? I would say yes. But as I showed earlier, I do think they have done hard work to warn non-coms about impending strikes, not tactically sound from a purely military POV, but they have done so.
  15. tomwilhelm

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    Right. Which is why we have an international body like the UN. Someone needs to make sure that no one's basic human rights are being trampled on in the rush to meet priorities. Unfortunately, because of the US, the UN is worthless when it comes to the Israel/Palestine issue.

    So the Palestinian people get kicked out of their homes to make room for settlers. Or they just get outright bombed. Tough luck for them.
    teammellieIRANfan repped this.
  16. Perndog2006

    Perndog2006 BigSoccer Yellow Card

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    funny,

    the palestinians also have priorities

    1. palestinian citizens
    2. palestinian lands
    3. other palestinian interests
  17. Mr. Conspiracy

    Mr. Conspiracy Member

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    When has the UN ever been useful? Look at Syria right across the border, almost 38,000 dead there, as compared to how many dead in this fight? How many hundreds of thousands of people displaced there, how many wounded? And you know hamas has been helping the rebels fight while hezbollah helps assad.

    As for the bombing quip, if Israel fired into gaza with the same intentions as hamas, then I would agree with you. However, Israel actually targets hamas militants and not the general population. That is a big difference whether you accept that or not.
  18. Umar

    Umar Member+

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    They deliberately killed some journalists a few hours ago. Tried justifying it too. Nobody's buying it anymore.
    teammellieIRANfan repped this.
  19. tomwilhelm

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    But how important is it to take out a weapon whose hit rate is approximately 1 in 1000? You don't have your snipers shoot the kid in the street just because he's throwing rocks at guys with combat armor and automatic rifles.

    There were a few flash points for this particular round. Yours was as good as any. Thanks for the link.

    The problem for me isn't really who started it (as if that game hasn't worn itself out over the last half a century, right?), but who should stop it. And for me that responsibility falls on the side actually inflicting damage.

    I think you give Hamas too much credit. They've successfully hit with ONE rocket, out of something like 1000 fired. I don't think the IDF is justified in firing on areas that contain civilians just because there is a "military target" in the vicinity. At least not at the rate they've been doing so. I really don't think it would be too much to ask for the IDF to dial back attacks on launchers to the 80% (as an example) of attacks least likely to kill Palestinian civilians and/or most likely to accurately hit Israeli targets. Apparently the new Iranian Fajr rockets, while they can reach Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, are ridiculously inaccurate.
  20. tomwilhelm

    tomwilhelm Member+

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    Intent is important.
    Actual results in reality is even moreso.

    113 to 3.
  21. teammellieIRANfan

    teammellieIRANfan Member+

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    That's because they are unguided rockets. They are designed to hit areas with dense civilian popoulation, rather than specific military targets. And even if they dont hit cities and civilians, Iron Dome missiles are being "wasted".
    Fajr rockets are very low cost, in contrast to Iron Dome which is à very expensive system with expensive missiles. So it falls into the doctrine of assymetric warfare, love it or hate it.
  22. odessit19

    odessit19 Member

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    It's interesting to read how people are awfully depressed and dissapointed to Hamas' rockets are not killing enough Jews.
  23. Stud83

    Stud83 Member+

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    If the weapon fires hundreds of times, sooner rather than later it's going to hit a target, right? I'm not sure I follow you here - you're saying there's a need to wait until it actually hits something before taking it out?



    I think it's obvious that Israel has an internal policy on the acceptable number of casualties with each strike. High-value targets obviously have a higher number. But do you really think anything would've been different if instead of 100 civilian casualties (whatever the latest number is) in Gaza there were 60?
  24. teammellieIRANfan

    teammellieIRANfan Member+

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  25. Mr. Conspiracy

    Mr. Conspiracy Member

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    Actually it is important because for one you do not want your enemy firing at you without consequnces, second you do not want your enemy to learn to become more accurate with the systems they have.

    I agree that game of who started it needs to end. The fact is that all this needs to come to a conclusion, and it is well passed time that a forced resoltion be put in place. For me, and I have said this before, I would make a de facto nation of Palestine be the west bank and gaza. I have detailed this before so no need to do so again, and I would let fatah and hamas figure out who controls what, though I would not object one iota if fatah were to get some "help" in that regard.

    I think Israel would be better served if they had our reaper drones that can hit those rocket launchers with smaller ordinance that would cause less damage to nearby structures. It isn't fool proof by any means, but the overall impact of a hellfire missile is far less then what is being used currently.

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