Jozy Altidore can't be stopped in Holland

Discussion in 'The Netherlands' started by zanedtlab, Oct 1, 2012.

  1. zanedtlab

    zanedtlab New Member

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    Jozy got another goal this weekend (which you can see here: Jozy 'all he does is score goals' Altidore)
    this gives him a staggering 8 goals in 5 games with AZ Alkmaar and he is rapidly becoming one of the deadliest strikers in Europe


  2. Orange14

    Orange14 Member

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    ^ Before you get all excited, lots of goals are scored in the Eredivisie. In fact, it it usually is the highest scoring league in Europe. Think back to Alfonso Alves who scored lots for Heerenveen a while back and couldn't make it in the EPL for Middlesborough.
  3. curbo

    curbo Member

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    Oh Alfonso Alves.. Having a fluke season here was the worst thing you could have done to the Eredivisie. Nobody cares about the relatively insane amount of quality strikers the Eredivisie produces because mister Alves had a fluke season and gave us a bad rep.

    But then again, the people who give us a bad rep usually rate strikers by their goals only.
    Jozy is an interesting youngster because he really improved in his time here, lets see where his limit lies..
  4. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

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    This is why Yanks are ridiculed a lot on the Bigsoccer forum, though for discussion purposes it is the right tone.

    First some positive things about Jozy:

    • He is improving as a player. That is what you can expect from playing in Dutch league.
    • He maybe even starts to thank his team mates. Development there as well.
    • He makes from time to time pretty spectacular goals.
    • He already made quite some goals, also 2 against Ajax.
    However.

    • Altidore is and will never be a refined player.
    • He has according to many experts the biggest Dutch talent playing behind him in Adam Maher. The rest of the supporting cast is not bad either. Martens is defensive weak, but does have his magic moments at times and that is what Altidore has to deal with. Beerens is for Dutch Eredivisie quite nice as well.
    • AZ as a club and team play offensive and attractive football. They press, they want the ball and they want to outscore the opponent, not concede 1 goal less. This benefits Altidore also in terms of chances. It also means he does not stand on an island, but has support from team players as AZ plays aggressive in a forward way, whether in possession or in counter situations.
    • Dutch Eredivisie is year after year the league where most goals are scored per game. This has to do with all Dutch teams having an attacking playing style. Bunkering to get a result is looked down on, even for small clubs (think de Graafschap last season and the slack they got). Fans go to the stadium to see something attractive. Also a reason why the occupation rates in Eredivisie are very high compared to many other country's in Europa, bar England and Germany. Dutch players are also more footballing defenders, rather than manhandling guys. When you as a team brake down the opposition in the football department, the defensive side of things will not prevent as much goals as in other country's. The quality of pure defending is just not that good in Eredivisie. This means that a striker usually gets more space than let's say in a Serie A. On top of these 2 things, the quality of the competition self, has gone down over the past 15 year. There are clear economic reasons for this. We see rich competitions getting richer and the poor getting poorer relatively speaking. This means more good players leaving and big talents leaving sooner. This is only strengthened by the upcoming competitions like in Russia, Ukraine and Turkey, buying now also the second string of quality from Eredivisie, like Demy de Zeeuw, Bakal etc. Or good players not finalizing their career in Eredivisie, after their foreign adventure, like Kuyt. Feyenoord could have used him as a striker against Kiev. All in all quality goes down, which leads to strikers scoring goals more easily.
    We had many (top) scorers in Eredivisie the last years that would never be able to transcend their high scoring rate in the Eredivisie on bigger stages, or even smaller stages (competitions where they do bunker etc. (Malki, Vleminckx). So to see if Altidore is a striker that is able to reach the top, we have to look at his handling speed, his close control, his wall pass, his feints, his passing accuracy, his through passes, his intelligence, his ability to score goals that would have gone in also in the biggest competitions, his chance conversion rate, the weight of his goals (tank goals, or decisive goals?).

    What Eredivise does for a striker is giving them confidence, many situations to gain practice from, coaches that are willing to improve you, adding football quality's to your repertoire and become an overall smarter player if you are open to learn. Verbeek is also a fine trainer for Altidore to work under. Maybe even excellent in his case, knowing the wrong mentality Altidore had to become a good pro. Thinking too quickly he was great and not having great discipline. Verbeek makes his players top fit, is very down to earth and demands a top mentality at all times. I remember last season how he benched Altidore for Benschop. Altidore could comply and raise his standards or fail at a club again. He choose the first option and then I think Verbeek has also taken all the time to guide him and invest time in him. It starts to pay off.

    Having said all this, Altidore will never reach the world top. He is scoring for AZ under all the special conditions I have pointed out, but he does not for Team USA. If he goes at the end of this season to another competition, I doubt his ability to make it. If he does not deliver, he will be benched again and this time there is not a coach that will help him out so much. Development is over once you are in EPL. You have to deliver. It's best to do what Vertonghen did and stay until he is at least 25. He needs all this time to improve on the football department. He will not do this. Money will be too good and Altidore thinks he is something else, just like many Americans. The last thing he needs is countrymen hyping him as this will jeopardize his career, ending up at a bench again.

    So the right thing to put it, is saying he has a good start in Eredivisie and he is improving with little steps. Maybe if he continues this way, after a few years, he can do the same for USA and a team in a tougher league. In Altidore's case much improvement still has to be done and his number output has little transcended value. In his case it is more important how the goals came about, as his overall technique is still bad and only moving slowly to acceptable maybe. Much more it will never be and then it's time for him to move.


  5. Orange14

    Orange14 Member

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    @DRB - Great post on Altidore. If our top striker Charlie Davies had not been involved in a terrible car accident, Altidore would not have had much of a chance to play for the NT. Davies was everything Altidore is not. I agree if he stays at AZ for another 4 years, he will be a much better player.
  6. zanedtlab

    zanedtlab New Member

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    You clearly know what you are talking about so I won't argue with you, but it is exciting to see the number and quality of goals Jozy has put away in the first five games. Hopefully this will be a sign of greater things to come for him playing with the national team.
  7. Aztattooedsean777

    Aztattooedsean777 Tattooed Football Fanatic

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    actually Davies and Altidore were beginning to be a good combination with Altidore being the big guy and Davies being the speed guy. There was a lot of potential there.
  8. Aztattooedsean777

    Aztattooedsean777 Tattooed Football Fanatic

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    Plus, no one is claiming he is going to be in the top 5 world wide strikers.

    It is just proof though that our players need to find the right club for them when they go else where to play club football.

    He is made to look good with the talent around him who set him up nicely on his goals but confidence is part of any player's overall game and he definitely is looking much improved.
  9. Teak

    Teak Member

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    I am glad to see Altidore beginning to flourish at AZ after that disastrous 1-goal season with Hull City in the EPL. He has the physical attributes to be a top-notch striker, but as stated, not the technical skills. For the USA NT, our best strike pair is still Donovan and Dempsey.
  10. he so scrumptiouz

    he so scrumptiouz Member+

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    I was wondering when someone would make this thread and now I got my answer. :p

    I like how even people like Johan Derksen have now turned around and concedes that he's a great striker. His goal against RKC was a thing of beauty.
  11. vagegast

    vagegast Member

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    Jozy will finish with 25 goals this season.
    LouisianaViking07/09 repped this.
  12. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

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    Did he?
  13. he so scrumptiouz

    he so scrumptiouz Member+

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    Scratch that, I didn't saw the latest show so probably not entirely because we know he's quite stubborn, but their new pet peeve right now is Pelle which says it all really. :p
  14. CANADA-AZ

    CANADA-AZ Member

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    DRB in the long reply makes some very good points about both Altidore and Dutch football

    Just a few additions from someone who watches AZ all the time and Altidore the last 2 years:

    Altidore is faster this year and because of this finds more room to play this year--the move and goal on Sunday would not have happened last year
    He is getting many more chances and cashing them--with a little more luck he could have another 3-4
    He uses both feet for passing and shooting and gaining confidence
    He is growing up as in maturing and because he has played full-time for 2 years as a striker. He is learning so much more than he did at his previous stops where he never was established
    He has a great rapport with Maher who is emerging as a star

    I do not think he will stay past this year if he continues like this---the money available will be too big--which is too bad because like mentioned above AZ plays attacking football and he fits right in

    My guess is either England or how about a top club in MLS?
  15. ajbirch07

    ajbirch07 Member

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    Depends on what your definition of big money. Dempsey was the third highest scorer in the EPL last year, however he didn't sell as high as many thought he was worth. There's still a thought that North American soccer players aren't as well equipped for the European game.
  16. Orange14

    Orange14 Member

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    ^Dempsey is 29 years old and has a limited number of years left. Altidore is much younger. He will make more money in Europe than he will in MLS which has a salary cap.
  17. CANADA-AZ

    CANADA-AZ Member

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    They have exception players in the MLS--like franchise player--that don't go under to the salary cap
    Toronto have Frings and Koevermans under this scheme--so I would not count that out yet--

    either he wants to play in the best competitions or he would prefer t play at home

    If Altidore has a big year he's gone unfortunately--look at Bas Dost last year--

    the fact that he's only 23 is a large plus
  18. Orange14

    Orange14 Member

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    ^most of those players are over the hill Euro players like Beckham.
  19. CANADA-AZ

    CANADA-AZ Member

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    this is the only way the MLS moves forward--right now they are grabbing very good young Mexican and Central American players who prefer NA over Europe--this is a process

    believe me I see a lot of BAD management in the MLS--Toronto is a great example--they have been in the league for 6 years and have had 4 GMs--everyone a diaster

    But

    if the MLS is ever going to become more than a summer league it needs to grab better players-and an American- or better local boy---would be a step in the right direction in many ways

    the MLS does not allow teams to spend stupidly and all teams live within an agreed budget--something that is a mile ahead of anything going on in Europe

    --right now Frings makes $1.25 mil/year--Koevermans--$1.1 mil on their exemptions--if Altidore could live on this then add little endorsement money, its a possible
  20. Orange14

    Orange14 Member

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    My home club, DC United, has probably been the most successful of all the MLS teams and they have done it largely with American players. The Euro and SA players they have brought in have been disappointing for the most part. They also have a decent academy and are starting several local players as well. Problem is we really need a new stadium and that's going to be difficult to get.
  21. Roger Allaway

    Roger Allaway Member+

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    First time I've heard Etcheverry, Diaz Arce and Moreno referred as the least part.
  22. Orange14

    Orange14 Member

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    Moreno was good throughout his career. The others were shooting stars in the early days of the league when the overall talent level wasn't very good. I guess Christian Gomez could be added to that list as he had three good seasons before burning out.
  23. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

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    I am sorry, but take away the foreign influence... and you have NOTHING. Etcheverry literally took the whole team on his back when they were struggling, and brought them from zero, to champions in 96'. He was the creative engine that made that team. Had he not taken better care of himself, he could have played deep into his 30s.

    Moreno too, could have easily gone back to europe or spain after 97' or 98'. Diaz Arce too was class and still produced after DCU let him go (because of money).
  24. ajbirch07

    ajbirch07 Member

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    RVP is just as old as Dempsey (29) and went for 16 million pounds more.

    MLS clubs historically don't pay transfer fees.
  25. Orange14

    Orange14 Member

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    Bolivianfuego - I'm not going to get in an argument about the impact of various players on DC United. I've followed them since their inception and was also around the area when Cruijff played for the old Washington Diplomats. Moreno was a top player at the club for a lot of years. Diaz Arce and Etcheverry not so long a time. Moreno would not have succeeded in Europe, he was quick enough for MLS but not any of the top Euro leagues.

    ajbirch07 - Van Persie is 10 times the player Dempsey is or ever will be. Dempsey is a decent withdrawn striker or attacking midfielder and IMO one of the best if not the best players the US has ever developed. I think he is better than Landon Donovan because he sees the field much better. It's too bad that he played for mid-table Fulham during his prime years as I think he could have been an impact player for a bigger club (but would have had to overcome the prejudice against American players.

    "MLS clubs historically don't play transfer fees" because they routinely bring in old Euro players who are out of contract and don't require a fee.

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