Judge, Jury, and Executioner-The official CKR do or die poll

Discussion in 'Korea' started by Corporation X, Aug 10, 2011.

  1. Korvinus

    Korvinus Member

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    1. You reasons are vague, but here goes. Reputation is built and earned by that player. Most coaches will take that into consideration. There are key players in all teams. Age hierarchy is part of society. Seniority is important in any setting. The problem is not the hierarchy, but who is selected as leaders. I don't get what your gripe is with the two factors. Harmony is important in a team, and age hierarchy brings it.

    Performance in both K-League and J-League is important. Are you downplaying the two leagues? Korean clubs are the most successful participants in the AFC Champions League. What would you use to judge the quality of a player then??

    2. How is a foreign coach going to improve our team by bringing in "a system that is realistic for the level of talent". Trial and error before success. Cho is testing our players out and forcing our players to think differently and play differently. BTW, a foreign coach "Anatoliy Byshovets" tried the same approach as Cho Gwang-Rae back in the 90s. What you're asking for is nothing a domestic coach can't do.

    3. What has that got to do with developing our soccer? If a player is good enough, he will be spotted and picked up by a European team. Are you citing Hiddink and Park Ji-Sung? Lets look at Advocaat and Lee Ho and Kim Dong-Jin in Europe. Lee Ho sat on the cold benches of Russia, and while Kim Dong-Jin did win a UEFA Cup, he didn't improve his game any more than while he played for FC Seoul. He was on bench for the final against Rangers btw.

    4. As Rinus Michels states, understanding tactics and implementing them are only part of the game. In the end, without the right talent, you can't do anything or there's a limit to what you can do. We're still developing and producing better players. Cho or any coach foreign or not, can't pull a key defender out of his hat. It's up to the teams where prospective talents play to develop them. What we need are more Farias-esque coaches in K-League then not another Advocaat, Coelho, Bonfere, Pim in the national side. But, we have good managers in the K-League e.g. Choi Kang-Hee, Hwang Sun-Hong (still raw but he's getting there), Park Kyung-Hoon, at one point, Chang Woe-Ryong and Kim Hak-Bum, etc

    5. Another reason that has nothing to do with whether the coach is foreign or domestic. That type of thinking is subjective to that coach's personality not nationality. All coaches want to win. All coaches want the best players possible in their line-up. If not, they have no business taking the hot seat.

    Here's a story that shows how clueless foreign coaches can be with regards to domestic soccer. Pim Verbeck complained after a poor game against Oman during a U-23 Olympic qualifier match. He stated that players like Kim Jin-Kyoo and Kang Min-Soo (both played for Chunnam Dragons) were tired from playing too much and training too much in the K-League. He criticized Huh Jeong-Moo openly and the league and made snide comments suggesting that Korean coaches were backwards in thinking because of a lack of European experience. The interviewer reminded Pim that Huh played for PSV Eindhoven in his heydays. Pim had nothing to say. Later, Huh was indignant at Pim's excuse, because Huh, knowing of the qualifier match, gave the two defenders time off and rest.

    What does that show? Ignorance and lack of communication with the domestic league. More and more players are going to Europe to ply their trade, but the domestic league is still crucial for a national side's success. It is important for the coach, foreign or not, to have the support and open ears of the domestic coaches and the powers that be in KFA.

    A foreign coach has proven this to be a difficult task. (Anatoliy Byshovets, Humberto Coelho, Jo Bonfere, Pim Verbeck, etc)

    Trying to lure an "established" foreign manager is a short sighted. It might bring small success, but that does nothing for developing our soccer culture or youth players. What we need to do is learn from our mistakes, examine other soccer cultures, theories, training methods worldwide and adapt it so its suits our style and mentality, because in the end, the team playing another in a FIFA match will read: Korea Republic


  2. skimmilk

    skimmilk Member+

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    The national team manager has nothing to do with what happens at the youth and "culture" perspective. I also agree that having a foreign manager is no guarantee of anything, and most are just money grubs looking for an easy paycheck, not to mention their own biases (including being too rigid, overrelying on European names, etc).

    1. CKR is relying on our old guard even though most are offering nothing (e.g. KJW/LYR) all while younger players are as good if not better. While performance at the club level is a helpful indicator, there can be biases as well, again due to reputation. Sometimes fresh perspectives are necessary. Now is CKR following into the Korean trap of over-reliance on age/hierarchy over talent? I'm not certain, but I also think he has failed to give our young players tests at every opportunity.

    2. What CKR is planning tactically is being unrealistic. As we saw in the AC, what worked against India was total fail even against mediocre world sides such as Australia. There has to be some perspective on what our talent level is vs. the world. Can a domestic manager do this? Sure. But CKR specifically has not shown this.

    3. Having a manager bringing you with them is no guarantee of success. But Korea could use a champion fighting for its players in a foreign league right now against the cheaper (if suicidal) availability of japanese players.

    4. I have no idea what you're arguing. CKR himself seems to have done a great job in the k league developing many of our current stars. But there's a different skillset to managing the national team and what they did in K league is no barometer of their capabilities for the NT. And I agree, the NT manager can't make players appear out of his hat so arguing about their historic ability to develop stars for their club is a total non-starter. You can't make a super talent out of the few weeks of training a year a national manager gets. Which makes it more confounding when CKR continues to use wingers for defenders, CMs for wingers, etc.

    5. I see a lot of pressure politically to win haniljeons, sell tickets, etc. that the KFA appears to be wielding. A domestic manager has a lot more skewed payouts in deciding to go along or fight these pressures. It continues to confound me why CKR keeps calling up guys from Europe just to sit on the bench like NTH.


    Finally, you are arguing two separate issues, youth development and national team manager. I agree that a strong domestic development program will be the key engine to improving the korean national team.

    But the NT manager has virtually nothing to do with this. A NT manager's job instead is to make 2+2 = 5, all while using sparse resources in time / match play, while dealing with missing pieces such as a proper DM, back four, etc. I think CKR burned a ton of resources spinning his wheels, particularly at the AC where everyone was far more vested in winning than in a friendly.
  3. Korvinus

    Korvinus Member

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    1. First off, who are these good/better younger players you speak of?? Kim Jung-Woo and Lee Yong-Rae are all solid players. Skeletor intercepts the ball and distributes better than most people think. Lee Yong-Rae patrols the pitch and covers every inch of grass. His work rate is excellent. BTW, he outran Park Ji-Sung in Asian Cup 2011. Name me some replacements. Your bias and reputation angle makes little sense, because goals, assists, and live performance are all there. He gave Hong Jeong-Ho, Kim Young-Kwon their debuts. He gave the likes of Koo Ja-Cheol, Ji Dong-Won, and Kim Bo-Kyung bigger roles on the squad. Where has he failed exactly? He's looking for a balance between veterans and youngsters.

    2. The Socceroos are a strong side in AFC. We drew. How is that exactly failure? We outplayed them most of the match. And could you describe what is so unrealistic about Cho's vision and tactics?

    3. What?... A talented player will get scouted and picked up regardless of patronage. e.g. Koo Ja-Cheol, Lee Chung-Yong, Ki Sung-Yong, etc

    4. I'll make it clearer. Tactics is tactics. Without the right players, you cannot implement them. When the opposition is more skilled and talented, no tactic is going to save you if you don't have equal or greater talent. Foreign coaches won't make as much of an impact. Cho hasn't lost any competitive match so far. Why are people calling for his head? He lost two friendlies so far. He places emphasis on movement and passing along with overlapping runs. What is wrong with that? Lets make it easier. What
    type of soccer do you think we should be playing? What tactic fits our "level of talent"?

    5. You do realize Nam trains with the rest of the squad before matches when he is called up like the rest of the players. It is a perfect way for Cho to analyze first hand how much a player like Nam has improved and whether he is ready to ease into the lineup. If he feels Nam still is not ready, then he benches him until next game when he can call him up again and test and check his progress again. By doing that, Nam gets to familiarize himself with his teammates and soak in what Cho expects out of his players. It makes sense to me.


    Ok, two separate issues.

    As for NT manager's duty. It's simple. Guide the team to victory. Same for a club level manager.

    But, back to answering the main topic, a foreign coach is not going to better than a domestic coach with our current management and talent pool. (perhaps, that's what I should have written at the beginning. eh, I'll limit my writing in future posts)

    and you haven't answered this:

    "And probably won't anytime soon. But a foreign manager can accelerate the development of your program especially when local alternatives may be overwhelmed against world class programs."

    you just mentioned reasons why you don't like Cho, but offer no solutions to the problems you see. tactics wise, player alternatives, etc.

    Anyhow, the posts are getting longer than I wanted, and you haven't answered my questions so I wave white flag.
  4. skimmilk

    skimmilk Member+

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    Ok, it may be hard for someone new to the board but I've expressed many times on countless threads what CKR could do better, including starting off with a more standard formation familiar to our players (4-2-3-1), again starting off guys in positions that they normally play (e.g. Koo @ DM), and using players who will be contributors in '14.

    1. As for your other comments, I think many of us who aren't super k-league fans would disagree with LYR/KJW. And again, they're gonna be ancient in '14 and we already know their limits. KBK has hardly played... and at the wrong position. I think that goes with some of other young defenders. And really we missed golden opportunity at the AC to try them on. 5 minutes at the end of the match doesn't count for anything.

    2. Hahahaha. Yeah. Tough for the AFC. A far cry from the teams we will face in '14. I'm talking world class, man.

    3. Look at how many cheap exports Japan has pushed out. Perhaps it won't pay out, but for a european club manager, it would seem to be comparable risk/return for a much lower price. Luckily our talent is such that these hurdles are not significant now, but they could be if any of these post-kagawa Japanese exports pans out.

    4. Just search for any of my threads of my criticisms... many of which were sourced at the AC where imo we majorly underperformed. Thats a huge body of work relative to what NT managers normally deal with. Again, I think we should focus on defense first which is our major shortcoming. We have enough speed and skill to be very effective on the counterattack. We do not have the ability to play Spain (maybe no other country does). The short passes slow down all of our best players, particularly LCY/PCY and minimizes KSY's best attributes.

    5. You're gonna judge a guy based on an hour of training after the dude has travelled after a match on a long a** flight from northern France?! And miss potential time to impress in NTH's case their new manager where they will get not just two matches against unmotivated opponents, but rather years of playing time in one of the top leagues in Europe?


  5. skimmilk

    skimmilk Member+

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    I don't want to become the yubiyoo of CKR so I'm not posting here again for a while since obviously I have no say in if he stays/gos. To summarize, I think we have a pretty darn large body of work on CKR, between a whole tourney and bunch of friendlies against different quality opponents. I have been underwhelmed. You may not be.

    I agree that a foreign manager, especially on our budget, won't solve all of our problems, and may actually be a step backwards. My argument is less foreign/domestic, more so than my problems with CKR. Perhaps there are domestic managers who are better... I'll leave it up for the k-league watchers to suggest alternatives. But looking at the progress Japan is making just by dumping their domestic guy, we should keep our minds open and ask why that has happened in a span of a year (and not just the friendly, they were dominating us in AC until Kagawa got hurt).

    At the AC, CKR has already burned a bunch of great opportunities to give all of our young guys valuable experience on the NT in a live tourney. All the while also sacrificing their abilities to perform for their clubs to call them for meaningless friendlies and not play them.

    Finally, the two defenses I hear from CKR is based on his track record in the k-league:

    1. He's great at developing players. If so he should stay in the k-league where he will get chances to work with young talent day in and day out... not the minimal time in the NT training where you barely have time to do anything let alone change a player's position

    2. He's encouraging a more barca like style. Again, none of our players (outside of PCY now) play in anything resembling this style. For our guys to pick one of the most complex schemes up in a few weeks and compete against guys who have stayed in one system their whole lives (not just spain), that's inane. Thats a job for our youth programs to fix, not for the big boys in the NT.
  6. Corporation X

    Corporation X Member+

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    Sorry, I skimmed through everything - no pun intended. Didn't you want to win the AC, considering we were one of the heavy favorites? A tournament we haven't won in some 50 odd years.

    Both of you have some interesting & valid points.
  7. skimmilk

    skimmilk Member+

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    Just to answer your question since its not a CKR rant, not really since the tournament is meaningless to me. But we had great chances, particularly vs. India, to get our guys some experience (and rest our guys). And if we went all guns ablazing as we did, we should have won.
  8. Corporation X

    Corporation X Member+

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    We did win (4-1) but not by the scoreline necessary to avoid Iran.
    Questionable tactics but calculated gamble - I 'think' we needed to win 8-1 or some crazy score.
  9. skimmilk

    skimmilk Member+

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    I meant the whole enchilada.
  10. Corporation X

    Corporation X Member+

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    Once we went ET against Iran I knew it was going to be an uphill battle next match.

    Really should of made it easier on ourselves by beating the Aussies.
  11. gambeta

    gambeta Member

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    4-0 against India would've been enough to avoid Iran. It was perfectly reasonable to field our best line-up. The players, Kwak Tae-Hwi in particular, screwed themselves by conceding against a minnow.
  12. jsk14

    jsk14 Member+

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    yea the only goals we conceded in group stage were both penalties and thats down to player error.
  13. pourmood

    pourmood Member

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    We conceded two penalites; 1 against Bahrain and 1 against India. Against Australia, they scored from a header iirc or at least from open play.
  14. fiercejoy

    fiercejoy Member

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    yes, and there was some question whether cahill (i believe) was in an off-sides position interfering with the gk.
  15. Corea10

    Corea10 Member

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    Yeah cahill was in an offside position. There was a good gif showing that in one of the relevant threads.
  16. K:thecore

    K:thecore Member+

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    “It was a return to our old selves,” said Cho.”There were a lot of positives from the match but there is a long way to go. Kuwait is a better team technically than Lebanon and we now have to focus on that match and try to collect the points.”


    pretty amazed by this post match Lebanon quote tbh. does he think we're that stupid or is he just that stupid? he shouldn't have even said that really. Lebanon is clearly not Japan so who is he trying to kid? dooood.......
  17. dudedudedude

    dudedudedude Member+

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    I wish we weren't in such an easy group.
  18. Sergei Mantis

    Sergei Mantis Moderator Staff Member

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    Overconfidence just might kick us in the ass when the time comes...
  19. skimmilk

    skimmilk Member+

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    Aka Asian cup
  20. Sergei Mantis

    Sergei Mantis Moderator Staff Member

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    Lets not hope for a rude awakening then. :/
  21. KiChungWon

    KiChungWon Member

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    So, what happened to Yoon Bitgaram and Kim Bo-Kyung's relationships with Cho Kwang Rae
  22. ExoticFamilyCity

    ExoticFamilyCity Red Card

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    What are you talking about? One is injured heading back to Japan; and Bitgaram isn't on manager Cho's radar at the moment.
  23. KiChungWon

    KiChungWon Member

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    My bad that I don't follow Bitgaram and KBK new..?
  24. kimchipride

    kimchipride Member

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    This is how I see things right now.

    Cho Kwang Rae will definitely not be sacked unless we have a chance of not qualifying for the World Cup and/or we keep getting mediocre results like the last match.

    Barcelona tiki-taki football showed its promises in the early stages of CKR's career but by now it should be flowing a lot more easily. However, this is not the case. We self destructed trying to play cartoon football against Japan and it clearly did not work against Kuwait. The problem? Our players simply aren't good enough to utilize its potential.

    We don't have great dribblers that can beat defenders one on one and I get nervous when I watch our players pass to each other. When I watch other countries play, it looks like FIFA/PES ping pong passes but there's something about our team chemistry that looks completely off. Our long passes have been either hit or miss. Our midfielders/forwards are pretty good at cutting into space and fooling defenders (although finishing is bad) but when I see bbung chukgu long passes, it makes me mad.

    Some positives to note is that we ARE missing Lee Chung Yong and Son Heung Min. Ki Sung Yong is getting tremendously better over time. He's someone I don't worry about when I watch him. He makes great decisions and can handle himself quite well. As for PCY, is he in great form or is this his class? His finishing has been sublime for Korea nowadays. The confidence is certainly there and I know in 3 years, he will be a captain we can count on. We have an extremely young and talented squad. In three years, PCY, KSY, LCY, KBK, NTH, JDW, SHM will all become better players. Korea will improve significantly in just 3 years. I just hope CKR doesn't hinder and waste their talents.

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