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Match 59 (QF) - Germany v Argentina - Post-Match Thread [R]

Discussion in 'World Cup 2010: Knockout Rounds' started by JaredSS07, Jul 2, 2010.

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  1. aerez

    aerez Member

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    Yes that's clear.

    Maradona's team:

    • Guitierrez to free up room and run the flanks up and down - unused-
    • Veron the partnership with Messi and to control the midfield, one two's with Messi, and diagonals to Maxi and DiMaria
    • Maxi and DiMaria ineffective, Aguero clearly the better partnership with Messi
    • Mascherano to much back tracking. It was 5-1 for Mascherno, 5 damn good diamond members on Germany.
    • Defense, no Rodriguez who played well used.
    • Samuel Injured or not, what the hell?


    • Maradona's left out:
    • Cambiasso in defensive mid, less work for Mascherano
    • Zanetti obvious
    • Zabaletta, Banega, Insua back line options, but used spot for Palermo.

    Messi to be used as Riquelme to work the team around him, he's not that type of player. Even though he's a natural Midfielder which he showed, his skill level was flanking attacking player who can play his naturalized positions in a free flow movement game.

    Maradona probably doesn't even comprehend the tactical nuance that matters. Hell even I can't comprehend it very well, which is why you get a coach who knows how to do it and put it into practice.
     


  2. ForeverRed

    ForeverRed Moderator Staff Member

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    Isn't that why Bilardo was brought on board? Or wasn't he? Or did he disappear or was he ignored? What's the story there?
     
  3. aerez

    aerez Member

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    I guess from the resources I read and the people on the argentine forums is, bilardo was in the back ground, but maradona's ego didn't want him there. I don't know. Ole reports a lot of gossip. We'll know the full story in due time.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6fo-wZ6EHM&feature=player_embedded"]YouTube- Leitura labial de Maradona na eliminação da Argentina na Copa do Mundo[/ame]
     
  4. soccerdaddy

    soccerdaddy New Member

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    That is what I saw, Argentina was gassed quick and Germany seemed to have full steam the entire game. By the end of the game the Germans were running all over them.
     


  5. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator Staff Member

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    Bilardo was initially brought in to "advise" Diego but really to set the program in to place. Diego was primarily there to get the players motivated and believing in each other. To a degree it really worked and in that respect Diego did a great job. The relationship established b/w he and the players made him believe he could get them to do anything. Once he got that mindset Bilardo and the rest of the staff (quality group actually) got pushed to the back. This road started well before our qualification to South Africa was a guarantee.

    Diego might be the perfect guy to come to practices and visit the dressing room but a coach he definitely is not nor did the majority of us think he was.
     
  6. ForeverRed

    ForeverRed Moderator Staff Member

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    Ah ok, thanks. I was really curious because I'm not sure Bilardo would have handled the situation quite the same had he been more in the forefront of things.
     
  7. Borussia

    Borussia Member

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    Hmm, so you think that Maradona alone decided about the tactics vs. Germany?
     
  8. ForeverRed

    ForeverRed Moderator Staff Member

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    It had to be, there's no way an experienced coach and astute tactician like Bilardo would have allowed his team to collapse like that. Something had to have happened.
     
  9. Borussia

    Borussia Member

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    Just wondered ... since Argentina's tactics & fitness in the March friendly really impressed me (especially the high pressing). Maybe they just made the mistake to believe it would be that easy again for them against this young & unexperienced German team...
     
  10. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator Staff Member

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    As ForeverRed said, no way an experienced coach plays any team the way we played Germany. I'm not the biggest Bilardo fan as I preferred the Menotti school over Zubeldia but there is no denying what a quality coach Bilardo is. To give you some insight to how little Diego took Bilardo's advice was when Bilardo told him to sub in Milito against Greece and without even acknowledging him Diego brought in Palermo. I love Palermo but he had no business going to South Africa.
     
  11. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator Staff Member

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    From tactics to formation this Argentina team over the weekend was nowhere near what Germany played in March. I didn't consider the German team from the weekend to be anything like the team from March regardless of player selection. March gave this team and Diego a false sense of security and we got spanked for it.
     
  12. Crisstti

    Crisstti Member

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    Well, England collapsed in a similar way, even though they have Capello. Even Brasil seemed to collapse, though the result was closer.
     
  13. Borussia

    Borussia Member

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    Well, he should have been warned after Germany's 4:1 over England. Or did he really rate the English that low...?
     
  14. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator Staff Member

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    I really don't think the three situations are the same. Capello really is a class coach but I think the language and cultural barrier coupled with possible unrest in the side is what did them in. Dunga for the most part had gotten good results as DT but nobody really warmed up to the change from what Brazilians had known as football. If not for a couple of players losing the plot it could easily of been Brazil playing today. With Argentina the writing was always on the wall it's just many of us reached the point where it was important to support the team and get over what we couldn't change.
     
  15. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator Staff Member

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    He'd been warned and yes he'll always rate the English that low but this was an example of inexperience and ego.
     
  16. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

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    Moishe, the only contention I have with your post is that it's not true that "nobody really warmed up" to Dunga's work. He brought the results you mentioned, with Copa America 2007 and the 2009 Confederations Cup.

    As you said, if some players had not become unavailable (Elano and Ramires) it is HIGHLY probable that Brazil would have faced Uruguay in the semifinals.

    As for your country's NT, correct me if this is an oversimplification, but perhaps the euphoria of the World Cup added to the passion amongst fans made it hard for cold, clinical criticisms of Maradona's shortcomings as a manager to be made before and at the start of the competition, especially as your team won its first few games.
     
  17. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator Staff Member

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    It took some time for your fans to start accepting Dunga's approach to how the NT played and those results made it much easier to accept. A number of you in your forums even voiced the displeasure at playing the manner Brazil did. Once things crashed down against the Dutch those same criticisms came back in full force.

    Dawging Diego in the Argentine press seems to be a no no. Any other coach would have been eaten alive. The euphoria mainly came from the fans accepting that what is done is done so get behind Diego and don't be amargo. We overachieved just by getting to the WC which is a bitter truth many of my countrymen won't want to admit but then again so was getting a favorable group. Diego had a chance to show he can coach and instead he played against Germany with one midfield player.
     
  18. pmhong

    pmhong New Member

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    These are the kind of comments I can respect. Yes, I agree with you that those players are old, especially Zanetti and a coach as the right to build a younger team. Some times, old teams win and sometimes they crash out. In 06, no one expected that Zidane had one more magic left. I guess I am a Zanetti fan and I was just bewildered that Maradona picked that young player after seeing his face in his dream every night. It is one thing to build a young team, it is another thing to make shamanistic choices.

    But it is true that Argentina finished 4th in qualifying with this Maradona team and it was not realistic to expect great results in WC.
     
  19. pmhong

    pmhong New Member

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    So should I now make an argument asking what did Messi do for Argentina? It is clear that you just hate Riquelme and can't see the big picture. Riquelme is the kind of player that the coach as to build a team around him. Maradona wanted to build a team around Messi. I think Messi did just fine considering the horrible tactics used by his coach. Riquelme, Messi combo would have done much better. Maradona cost Argentina a decent chance at winning WC.
     
  20. Plxix

    Plxix BigSoccer Yellow Card

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    Riquelme tends to disappear in games. It just happens. It's the same at club or national level. Let's not forget: 1) Riquelme is old, and 2) He quit the national team - no one, not even Maradona ever walked away from the Argentina jersey.

    Messi is 23. Yes this WC exit is painful - as it was for Diego at age 22 crashing out in Spain. I'm sure Messi will bounce back.
     
  21. pmhong

    pmhong New Member

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    It will be very interesting how Messi and Argentina comes back in Brazil. He is a great player and young so I wish him the best next time around. I always thought Ronaldo's flopping in 98 and his redemption in 02 was a great story.
     
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