Discussion in 'International News' started by Ismitje, Mar 16, 2012.
so you're saying Syria will have democracy once the wahabis take over? lol
No, he's saying is if Syrians want Wahabis, then it's up to them (the people), not a dictator.
Syrians are tribal and secterian; and so are Iraqis, Lebanese, Yemenise ... and all the other arab countries in the ME and North Africa.
It's not about who they ('the people' as you say) want in power. It's about which sect and tribe is able to kill and torture its way to the top.
'the people' of Saudi Arabia and all the other US protectorates in the region also have dictators, but they're your dictators so that makes it okay. Why don't you guys promote democracy and liberalism in SA, where women are beheaded for witchcraft and even cinemas are banned (and this is just the tip of the iceberg)!!!
I would want regime change in Syria if it meant that once Assad leaves, the Syrian people will have a right to self-determination and live a peaceful life in a democracy where their leader doesn't attack peaceful dissent.
I agree that the vast majority of supporters of regime change in Syria have good pure intentions and want the Syrian people to live peaceful lives. However, IMO, the chances of Syria suddenly turning into a democracy (even with regime change) is about zero.
But how about the genocide in Darfur/Rwanda? Those situations were far more aggressive and yet there was not loud support for regime change in those countries because it wouldn't change US strategic interests.
But IMO, those that are loudest for regime change in Syria are the neocons. And their primary interest is NOT for Syrian self-determination...it is to reduce Iranian influence. They aren't even coy about it either.
Here is what Romney said about the Syrian crisis...which actually IMO is a very calculating and analytical assessment of the situation. Romney's plan is actually a variation of Obama's "leading from behind in Libya" too. That said, I think there are a lot of gaping holes in his proposal. For example, how can you tell the Alawites and regime supporters that they have a future if they abandon Assad and in the meanwhile he advcotates supplying weapons to opposition in Syria...which makes those regime supporters targets by the opposition.
<But in Syria, with Assad in trouble, we need to communicate to the Alawites, his friends, his ethnic group, to say, look, you have a future if you’ll abandon that guy Assad.
We need to work with — with Saudi Arabia and with Turkey to say, you guys provide the kind of weaponry that’s needed to help the rebels inside Syria. That will go a long way to reducing Iranian influence in the region..which will begin to change the world>
The Wahabis will institute another dictatorship. After all, the Gazan people (the people) wanted Hamas and not the Arafat corrupt dictatorship. Hamas just instituted another dictatorship.. one less friendly to the West and obviously Israel.
Who is 'we guys'? I don't speak for US government, and neither do most posters here. Trust me, I think Saudi Arabia is awful and their government full of dickheads.
That is the consequence. I did not say that electing Wahabis to power is something I would want, but that is not the point. Just as it was with Gaza. You know perfectly well how I feel about Hamas, but Palestinians living in Gaza elected them and now they have to live with the consequences. However, they did have a right to elect whoever they wanted.
Yea, I know. I'm just saying that I don't think that just because a nasty regime is replaced (ie. the Assad regime) does not mean that Syria will become a Jeffersonian democracy the day after a new government is formed.
What needs to happen is that the Middle East needs to modernize (outside Turkey and Israel) in order for a democratic Middle East to emerge. There needs to be a strong and vibrant middle class that will support the democracy. There needs to be a strengthening of civil institutions that are necessary for a democracy. There needs to be a checks and balances in the government. All of these are alien ideas in most of the Middle East. The West, due to its strategic relationship with the various countries, also usually does not encourage a true democratic transition when it could do a lot more...even though NGO's are doing great work.
For example, the United States was encouraging Iran to take steps to democratic reform in the 1960's which led the shah to enact the "White Revolution"....then subsequent presidents abandonned it essentially (particularly Nixon) who saw the shah as a strategic bulwark against the Soviets. If ideas from the White Revolution (women's voting rights) were furthered, then Iran today *possibly* could be much different.
Yeah, I just don't see it happening. Maybe I'm a pessimist or a realist, but there are things in this world that I do not believe can ever change.
Good for you. Now start screaming and shouting for the rights of Saudis with the same vigour that you do for the Syrian people. And this is for all you USraelis that are shedding crocodile tears.
I don't know why you are making these conclusions. I can only comment on what I hear in the news and right now, it's all about Syria.
It would be nice to see some sort of No war with Israel march in Tehran.
Yea right , people would be shot or taken to prison and tortured . You seem to forget freedom does not exist in Iran .
I praise the Israelis that took part in the march in Tel Aviv to protest a war with Iran but hopefully you are not equating the risk that the Israelis took to protest a war with Iran (which is about zero) to the risk Iranians make when they undertake the same actions?
I know, wishful thinking on my behalf
Of course not. There are facebook gestures Iranian people are making and that's risky enough. The world needs to see more of that though and so do Israelis.
Are you implying that we Iranians are war mongers and you guys are the angels?
Please try again
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYjuUoEivbE"]We Love You - Iran & Israel - YouTube[/ame]
Maybe Sting should redo the lyrics to the song "Russians" for Israel, Iran and Palestine.....
Why do you want to reduce it to a black/white, false dichotomy ? Who are you George Bush ?
The Iranian people are not war mongers. The Iranian government most certainly is. And no one would ever accuse the Israeli governments of being "angels" when it comes to military action.
But in this particular conflict, its quite obvious that the aggressor is the Iranian government. The Israelis' had a long previous history of good relations with Iran. When and why did it change ? Who is stopping now from going back to good relations ?
last time I checked, it's US/Israel instigating this war
and like I said before, it's all timed with the devaluation of USD
every time oil price get's past 100, the war drums starts beating
take a look at the news coverage between 07-08, remember the British sailor incident, Congressional Resolution 362, ...etc.
This guy a financial researcher, says similar things:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqGrpG6bg7Q&feature=related"]Gerald Celente - Fox Business News - 19 March 2012 - YouTube[/ame]
I feel for the Israeli people who are subjected to psychological warfare on a daily basis by their media.
I mean, obv they don't want war...because they're real human beings and have human emotions.
But they can't be so naive, the people running govs in US/ISrl/Irn don't have the emotion gene. They're cold-blooded psychopaths, they don't give a fck about anyone they don't know.
As the economy gets weaker and weaker and more an more people get fired and go protest, these politicians will distracted everyone with a big war and secretly hope that some 60-70% get killed so unemployment rates goes down, and everything goes back to normal and no politicians gets charged for the moral hazards they've created that led to all of this chaos in the first place.
This is the type of mindset a typical warmongering politicians has:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv4c3flhSaU"]The Iceman Confessions Of A Mafia Hitman 1of2 Richard Kuklinski - YouTube[/ame]
To them it's either they get charged for treason or you go to war.
Economist on the Iranian engineers' breakthrough on "Smart concrete", and why it matters, and how it could effectively make bunker busters useless against Iran
I can understand their position, syria is an ally of theirs and they want to maintain their influence in syria. But what dinner jacket said it just sad...
To say he is very happy that syrian officials have killed over 10,000 of their own people really signafies what ahmadeinejad and his govt. are all about. This should also be an eye opener for the people of iran to understand the lengths that their Govt. will go to keep them under their thumb.
And to underscore what dinner jacket is very happy about;
Let me just repeat that for anyone who missed it the first time...
Separate names with a comma.