MISL/PASL Merger Thread

Discussion in 'Pro Indoor Soccer' started by bbwavefan, Feb 23, 2014.

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  1. bbwavefan

    bbwavefan Member

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    Kenn, you make a lot of good points in your post. I'm not really arguing with anything you said, so please don't think I am. However, you talk about fair comparisons, and then go on to compare indoor attendance today to outdoor attendance 10 years ago. We both know that's not a fair comparison.


  2. NickWISoccer

    NickWISoccer Member

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    i'm not sure how serious an attempt the wave united was to have an outdoor team in milwaukee again. they didnt last, in any event..
  3. Scott717257

    Scott717257 Member

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    Very fair points Ken, however, and I may be wrong here and in no way do I speak for Soccer Sam in ANY capacity but, I do not believe he was saying just indoor and outdoor teams that play in the same cities, but just in general overall indoor outdraws or draws the same as outdoor.

    I am not up to date on attendance figures of div 2 or 3 outdoor teams across the country and Baltimore doesn't have a team as you pointed out (last outdoor Baltimore game I went to was the Bays anyways in mid 90s). But it would seem avg. 5-7K a year as Baltimore, Rochester and Milwaukee do and a few of the PASL teams too, would outdraw the majority of outdoor teams not playing MLS.

    Point being, again I may be wrong here, I think Sam was trying to point out growing both sports would have only helped the USL in the long run as the same or atleast a lot of the same guys would be playing on both teams and HOPEFULLY carrying fans over. Thus also making it worth owning a franchise more than just a "love of the game" type deal.

    You seem to know more than I(obviously do know more than I) on these matters, but I can't imagine fielding a indoor team putting 5-7 K in the stands on a average would dry up your wallets more than owning a outdoor team seating only 2-3k. Any insight on differences in prices of running a indoor team vs outdoor? Easy lease/rent going outdoor route? More stability going indoor w/ schedules (no rain/weather cancellations)? Would love to get more insight on the inner inner workings of teams from guys like yourself who actually know what happens in the backrooms.
  4. skipper60601

    skipper60601 Member

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    When the USL tried to put together the I League a few years back, all of three teams joined. So why would anyone in their right mind believe that the same USL was going to bring in eight expansion franchises for the MISL?


  5. MizzouMan22

    MizzouMan22 Member

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    As long as the level of ball was good. I'm all for it.
    I watched the Roar/Comets game. It was a joke. The coach was playing. He had to weigh 250 pounds and looked like he never touched a ball before this season.
    I'm a MLS fan. But NASL, USL Pro doesn't interest me even though they have some good players.
    I love the indoor game and I actually like the PASL rules better, it allows for a technically cleaner match. Indoor players are generally better ball handlers in tight spaces. I enjoy that aspect of the game very much.
  6. MLSinCleveland

    MLSinCleveland Member

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    Missouri and Chicago (and Baltimore if you want to stretch it and lump Baltimore and Washington together) are in pro outdoor markets, but those teams are MLS, so that's a really unfair comparison for an MISL team.
  7. soccerFrank

    soccerFrank Member

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    Kenn,
    As much as I respect Soccer Sam and his passion for every product he sells (Pizza, indoor soccer, and soon to be bringing back Arthur Treacher's Fish n Chips franchises back to ROC) ...I agree with your points here.
    I did get to 8 Lancer home games this year and have had season tix the first 2yrs also. The Lancers "announced" attendance is terribly , terribly inflated ( they must of taken a lesson from the Rhinos..lol).
    Its really comical what they say or print after each game (attendance wise).......PLUS, all kids under 12yrs get in FREE (maximum 3 kids per 1 adult)....thats why there are tons of kids each game. The arena only operates a few consession stands and staff is minimum it seems compared to the NLL and AHL games.
    As much as I enjoy going to Lancer games, no one is kidding themselves believing they lead the league in attendance...last year a local D&C sportswriter had done some digging and reported "according to city of Roc records" the Lancers had less then 1000 actual paying fans per game (and that was during the first two seasons)...this year one could only guess it would be even lower .
    Last year, Soccer Sam had a plan along with the Rochester Razorsharks owner to move out of the downtown arena and into a remodeled suburban arena that could seat about 6 0r 7k and they would offer free parking and control the food/beverages sales....It appears that option isn't an option anymore, the deal apparently fell thru.

    Hopefully they get things worked out whatever league they play in.
  8. Scooge

    Scooge Member

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    I remember the article talking about this remodeled arena and the Lancers sharing it with another team but I never heard anything about it since. Thanks for the update.
  9. nick p

    nick p Member

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    If Hale expects teams on "Baltimore's level" (market size with arena bigger than 5,000) to agree to this merger idea
  10. EnricoSharke

    EnricoSharke Member

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    This is exactly why I think the best solution, whether there is a "merger" or not, is for the PASL to continue to field a single league of have and have-nots next year.

    The fact is that we have two business models right now, and it appears to be the MISL model that is failing, not the PASL model (I don't see any PASL owners publicly railing against their league or looking to jump elsewhere).

    It seems to me foolish for the PASL to change their model to be more like the model that is apparently in the process of falling apart.

    And yes, I do see the downside of keeping the Hidalgos and Texases. (Texi?) But if right now we need a bushel of Washington Generals to keep the "solid" franchises afloat, then I think, well, we need them.

    And boy, it sure would be nice if franchises like the Waza and Mustangs had a chance to grow into "solid-hood".

    Disclaimer: Just a fan thinking out loud.
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  11. NSL2004

    NSL2004 Member

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    What's wrong with Hildalgo?

    Speaking of Washington Generals, (maybe Kenn can pull this up) how many games would the Ambush, Roar, and Lancers have won this year if they didn't play each other?
  12. GoStorm

    GoStorm Member

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    Hildalgo thinks they will be in the final 4 in Chicago. So they say
  13. NSL2004

    NSL2004 Member

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    They will be if they beat Monterrey. I just realized they have won 20 straight regular season games outside of the four games they split with Monterrey.
  14. bbwavefan

    bbwavefan Member

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    Pennsylvania is 0-13 against the 4 playoff teams.
    St. Louis is 2-12 (2-0 against Syracuse).
    Rochester is 1-12 (1-4 against Syracuse).
  15. GameraRPZ

    GameraRPZ Member

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    3K a game PASL salary cap? What PASL team could possibly afford that? Definitely not the have-nots. I couldn't see the Sacramento and Bay Area's of the PASL spending anywhere near $1000 let alone three.

    Just the fact that Dallas and San Diego have to pay real rent as opposed to these other teams goes to show you how unbalanced the PASL is, from talent to budgets. Don't the fans of the PASL want to see your teams step it up a little and get together with some MISL squads???

    I am sure the Chicago Mustang fans would be happier losing by 4 goals to Milwaukee than to crushing the Piazza by 20.
  16. GameraRPZ

    GameraRPZ Member

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    If some sort of merger / compromise happens...............what are we thinking....12-14 teams? I think more than that would be a mistake. The others could still play in a minor league of sorts, but to add in some of the 500 seat venues would make it much less "professional". Let's keep it at around a dozen or so I say, with an unbalanced sked.
  17. KidFlash

    KidFlash Member

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    The local media implied that the Razorsharks' owner would be the one putting up the money, and the closing date kept getting pushed back (which meant he didn't have the cash). So where that leaves the Razorsharks and Lancers next year is really anyone's guess. There's some talk about the Sabres taking over the BCA and renegotiating a more favorable lease for the non-hockey pro teams in the building, but that may just be fans' wishful thinking.

    If Sam's the point man for merger talks, then clearly he plans to be back next year.
  18. dcunitedTV

    dcunitedTV Member

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    Get over it! Its not PASL teams joining the MISL. Those MISL teams know what the PASL is. PASL is fine with their current operating status. If the MISL teams didn't NEED a league they'd be in better position to negotiate the removal of smaller PASL teams.
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  19. MLSinCleveland

    MLSinCleveland Member

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    Hopefully, there is some type of minor league. The Freeze seem to be building a pretty solid minor league operation and I'd hate to see that fail because indoor soccer becomes a major league-only sport.
  20. NSL2004

    NSL2004 Member

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    Only indoor soccer could turn 27 teams into a 12 team league on purpose. That would last about 3 years.

    The MISL would have folded years ago if not for teams like the Mass Twisters, Rockford, Norfolk, Orlando, Reading, Chicago Riot and Chicago Soul.

    And teams like Rochester, Reading, and St. Louis and, yes, Wichita, Tulsa, and Turlock wouldn't beat anyone if they didn't have equally lesser competition to play against.

    You can count the number of teams that draw well AND are competitive on six fingers.

    To the Readings and Turlocks of the world.
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  21. EnricoSharke

    EnricoSharke Member

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    Yikes. Nothing. Have no idea why they popped in my head. Go back, erase them, and toss in maybe Sacramento? Apologies to all Hildalgo fans!
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  22. WPSL

    WPSL Member

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    I base it on numbers. MISL's numbers are just better then the PASL's numbers. Why the MISL should come on top? The MISL is the better league, plain and simple! PASL just even sounds minor league. People remember the original MISL if they are talking about indoor soccer. Some people remember NPSL but no one remembers CISL and WISL. (besides indoor fans, but even some indoor fans if their team was not in the league, they never heard of the league) I was just talking to some soccer fans on another web site and they do remember the MISL, they never heard of the PASL. It comes down to the MISL is a better league and more strategic with marketing.
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2014
  23. Scott717257

    Scott717257 Member

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    And to add to WPSL's comments, you can not judge PASL's health to MISL's health because MISL is on a bigger stage so to speak. Where as over half the PASL play in rec centers/pavilions, the MISL teams for better or worse, play and pay for legit arenas. The fact alone that the Roar would be the 7-9th highest attendance in the PASL speaks volumes. The Roar would be a success story (away from the field and to be honest, on it as well most likely) if they played their inaugural campaign in the PASL. Syracuse is judged to be a team on the borderline of collapse in the MISL, in the PASL they would be top 5 in attendance and most likely the best team in the league.

    Your comparing apples to oranges when you ask how is MISL better when x,y,z of the league sucks or attendance is bad considering at the same time teams like the Waza and Chicago are getting props for their growth and can't average 500 people a game.

    Money, numbers, history, name power ... this is why the MISL teams involved have the pull they do.
  24. GoStorm

    GoStorm Member

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    I disagree but just my opinion. Don't get me wrong I am a fan of the MISL but I just don't see that happening. The PASL teams are in the PASL for a reason and I am not sure they would want to play under the MISL rules & regulations. I think they are happy with the format they are working with. I could be wrong but I am not hearing anything from the PASL folks with teams I know. I really think we need to wait til the seaosn ends and see how things shake out. Speculating is across the map on what will happen.
    And I don't think the MISL will have any "pull" wiith the PASL. Unless those teams throw around a lot of money and pay off the PASL I suppose.
    I also don't think you could call the Roar a success story in the PASL. That team I would bet lost a lot of money this year. Even if they were in the PASL they still would have lost money.
    As mush as we LOVE this sport and want to hang onto it and hope that it lives forever changes must be made. It is not a financial success story. In the end this all comes down to money and it is a business. We as fans buy tickets but how many fans are there across the country? There are some cities that embrace indoor and others where teams go to die. that is a reality. I would love to have a team here that plays in the United Center but you know what that will never ever happen because the money end of it is not there.
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2014
  25. DallasHammster

    DallasHammster Member

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    When I responded "Yeah, you keep telling yourself that..." to someone else who suggested Dallas was holding the meetings to consider "jumping ship" to the MISL, that was just me holding my temper. Thanks man. :D
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