MLS vs. UEFA Coefficients

Discussion in 'MLS: General' started by soccersubjectively, Nov 26, 2012.

  1. soccersubjectively

    soccersubjectively Let us soccer

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  2. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

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    It's very difficult if not impossible to mathematically model the cross conference ranking where there are next to little cross conference matches (the only way UEFA can meet a CONCACAF opponent is at the World Club Championship).

    A few folks do the Elo type club ranking. I posted the links on the MLS N&A board recently but the relative cross-continent totals are of dubious value.
  3. soccersubjectively

    soccersubjectively Let us soccer

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    Well I was just using that as a guide. I was just trying to gauge how the MLS stacks up against the rest of the world's leagues.
  4. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

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    The UEFA Coefficients aren't really a good guide because they calculate points based on performances in European competitions (Champions League and Europa League).

    Ranking MLS vs. other leagues around the world is nearly impossible because of the lack of competitive games between the MLS and other leagues. It is entirely subjective.

    Guys like SideFootSitter, who haven't watched an MLS game in 16 years will tell you that MLS ranks somewhere around the 497th best league in the world, right behind the Vietnamese first division and just ahead of the Vanuatu Premier League.

    I've had the chance to talk with a number of players that play(ed) in MLS as well as other leagues and the general consensus is that strictly from a starting 11 perspective, the top MLS teams are on par with the relegation zone EPL teams to the top of the Championship.

    The biggest separator is the lack of depth, which is the product of the salary cap in MLS.

    But if you wanted to rate MLS top to bottom in comparison to the UEFA coefficients, I'd say it probably would fall in the 10-15 range. Just my opinion
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  5. soccersubjectively

    soccersubjectively Let us soccer

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    That's all I ask for. Thanks!
  6. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member

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    So does that mean the champions of Greece, Denmark, and Switzerland (who are in the 10-15 range in the UEFA coefficients) would be in or near the EPL relegation zone?
  7. M

    M Member+

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    Sounds about right. Chelsea, for example, demolished the Danish champions in Denmark despite their woeful CL season. As did Shaktar.
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  8. SwissGCZ

    SwissGCZ Moderator Staff Member

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    My personal opinion:

    15-20 in Europe
    20-25 Worldwide
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  9. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

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    Yeah. Probably.Maybe some exceptions.

    There might be a little more strength at the top of Turkey than say MLS. But from a league perspective, which is what the topic of conversation is, MLS would rank somewhere in that 10-15 range. Maybe not 10. I think the Belgian league is definitely better than MLS from top to bottom. So I'll amend to 11-15 range.

    The question isn't "where would MLS stack up against the very best team in Turkey, Greece or Norway." Its, "where would MLS as a league stack up in relation to the UEFA coefficients."

    The problem with most posters here on Big Soccer is the think Greek 1st division and the only teams they think of are Olympiacos and AEK. They don't really take time to think about the drop off from that top tier to the next tier of teams like Aris and Xanthi, let alone the bottom of the table teams.

    I can't speak for you, but I watched plenty of games when EJ and Freddy were with Aris. And aside from the top teams, the level wasn't much better than what you see on an average Saturday in MLS. And in a lot of cases, it was far worse.

    Quite a few relatively average MLS players have moved to Denmark and had very nice careers with top sides in that league. And every player I've talked to that played in Denmark (and its quite a few) will say that the level is fairly comparable, with the exception of one or two teams.

    The Cypriot First Division has its ranking based completely off the performance of 1 single team, APOEL. I think is pretty safe to say that from top to bottom, MLS is a stronger league than that.
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  10. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

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    I agree with you on the worldwide figure. Probably closer to the 20 range than 25 though.

    Argentina, Brazil and Mexico are the only leagues in the Americas that I would put ahead of MLS at this point. (Cue our South American friends telling me that the Bolivian 9th division is light years ahead of MLS).

    I would say that the J-League and the K-League are probably a hair better than MLS is right now.

    If you want to get really technical you could throw a couple of second division leagues in the mix as well.

    But yeah, it still keeps MLS right in that 20th best league in the world range.
  11. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

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    All we can do is a little with Conmebol, because Mexico also plays there, Mexico ranks about 5th in Conmebol (Libertadores) but 3rd to 7th are very close, MLS would probably rank with Peru or maybe between Peru and Venezuela. (Remember this type of rankings only care about the top few teams not league strength over all).
  12. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

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    Well that is the issue Coefficients only rank the top few teams, so having a league that is level does not help, having a league with 2-3 clubs and 15 bad club helps more.

    So if we go by how would an MLS team do if they got to play in an European tournament then that would be a very low ranking (using my Conmebol example as above).


    BTW season long, no MLS team would keep up with QPR or Reading, shit I doubt any Liga MX team could keep up with them in the EPL.

    I am not even sure if MLS teams have the depth to stay in the Championship level. Just my Opinion.
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  13. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member

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    Nordsjælland were the champions of Denmark but their UEFA coefficient for 2007-2008 through 2011-2012 was less than a fifth of Copenhagen's showing that Nordsjælland did not have much history of success in UEFA even compared to another Danish club. I wouldn't call Chelsea's Champions League "woeful." If Chelsea beats Nordsjælland, Chelsea could be eliminated but they will have 10 points.
  14. soccersubjectively

    soccersubjectively Let us soccer

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    Maybe a mod can change the topic to MLS compared to the rest of the world as the coheffishs, I have learned, are not to be trusted.
  15. patilluky

    patilluky Member

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    Better accounting for the higher leagues to the MLS and thus we see that number would be presently.
    Spain,England,Germany,Italy,Portugal,France,The Netherlands,Russia,Greece and Turkey are clearly above the MLS a few above and other less.
    Romania,Belgium,Austria,Scotland,Switzerland,Poland,Denmark,Cyprus,Sweden,Norway,Ukraine for my have the standard as the MLS i refer only to level of the game.The MLS is in this group of leagues could be the first or the last of these that it is subjective and depending who will give you a position, if the level of the game you join the organization, support, and stars will always make the MLS this above in this group.
  16. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

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    There is a bunch of threads about opinion based comparative.

    The coefficients just rate the top teams in each league, I imagine the question of the OP is if the USA/Canada got invited to participate in the UEFA competitions how would we do.

    I imagine we would start with one team in the Champions 1st qualifying round and 1 team in the Europa League qualifying round, I guess most years we would not make the groups in the Champions, but would have a decent chance of making the UEFA League groups more often than not IMO.
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  17. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member

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    Only the champions of the bottom four or six countries (depending on if the defending champion qualifies through league position or needs the defending champion spot) start in the Champions League First Qualifying Round. Many champions start in the Second Qualifying Round and have to advance three rounds to get to the Group Stage. As for the Europa League, most countries get three clubs, and MLS could have something like the Cup Winner starting in the Third Qualifying Round and the top two clubs other than the champion and Cup Winner starting in the Second Qualifying Round.
  18. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

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    I know this is all make believe (it can be fun), Yes I was trying to say the first round of eliminations, I did not know what they are named.

    But yes the USA/Canada would start with a 0.00 coefficient score and it would build based on how we do mostly on the Europa cup.

    BTW since we are in Concacaf, I imagine it would be like the Mexican teams in Libertadores where we would have to send 4 teams to the CCL, then send some others to Europe, that would hurt us in the coefficient since the better teams would not be playing in Europe.

    Funny shit is that with the amount of money on the table, most MLS teams would not want to win the SS, MLS Cup or USOC since that would mean losing out on all the European money.
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  19. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member

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    Keep in mind that:
    1. It would be expensive for MLS clubs to travel and sleep in Europe.
    2. The UEFA Champions League and Europa League qualifying rounds are in July and August when MLS clubs have midweek USOC games.
  20. MexiKampeon

    MexiKampeon Member+

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    You guys are wasting your time.... MLS ranks a slight notch above Central American leagues & on par with the Mexican 2nd Division... until the MLS teams actually go down & get routinely embarrassed 2007 Copa America style we will not know how big the gap is between MLS & the softest CONMEBOL leagues.
  21. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

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    http://clubelo.com/All/Ranking.html

    http://www.footballdatabase.com/worldrankings.php?Rnk=1

    Above are two sites that use Elo to rank clubs and Club Elo actually have the minor - i.e., 2nd Division - clubs included. Hypothetically, one can just look up the Elo rankings for all clubs within a given league and average it out, thereby eliminating the advantage gained in the UEFA rankings by the top heavy leagues such as Spain, France or Russia.

    One can also use this to compare leagues that rarely compete directly such as English Championship vs. Bundesliga II vs. Norway vs. Greece vs. anyone.

    These are current UEFA league rankings based on the UEFA events.

    http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method4/crank2012.html
  22. soccersubjectively

    soccersubjectively Let us soccer

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    I think the MLS is holding its own against the 1st Division in the champions league, no?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012–13_CONCACAF_Champions_League
  23. MexiKampeon

    MexiKampeon Member+

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    When an MLS team finally eliminates a Mexican team from the tournament we can talk about holding its own... in the mean time MLS has been run over repeatedly by the Mex League Bench Warmer Reserves freight train.
  24. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

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    This is the most insanely stupid and trolling post that I have read in a while and it really is sad.

    There was a time when Mexican teams ran out their reserves and crushed MLS teams.

    But guess what? MLS teams are starting to get results against Mexican teams using their reserves as well. And they are going down to Mexico and getting wins too.

    The gap is closing. And people like you who think otherwise remind me of the Mexican national team fans that spent the first 10 years of the 21st century denying that the US national team was passing Mexico.

    The inferiority complex that you guys have is really clouding your ability to actually judge what is happening on the field and its pathetic.
  25. deuteronomy

    deuteronomy Member+

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    1. I would place MLS at number 18 in the UEFA ranking coefficient. Directly behind Israel and ahead of Romania.

    2. MLS has done an absolutely awesome job of improving it's product since it's beginning in 1996.

    3. The outstanding soccer specific venues have been a great example of priority planning and utilization of resources.

    4. The next step will be to improve the overall depth of each team, this probably will involve raising the salaries. The revenue stream needs to continue to improve.

    5. It would be great to see us regularly winning and dominating the Concacaf Champions League competition. A , a bit of the concern lies in prioritizing and number 4 listed above.
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