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Pele vs Lionel Messi

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by Daniel96, Mar 17, 2012.

  1. Daniel96

    Daniel96 Member

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    Who do you think is better and why?

    Most people consider Pele as the Greatest Footballer Of All Time, but alot of People have also been saying Messi is the Greatest.
    I have always considered Pele as the greatest footballer but i have also been wondering if it really is Messi
    Buts its hard to compare Pele to Messi because they played in a different era

    I know that Pele scored 1281 goals in 1363 games but back then Football was so much different and weaker compared to today.
    And Pele won 3 World Cups but Brazil also had a good team back then too, just say if Messi played in the Brazil team back then im sure they still would of still won the World Cup.
    I wonder how it would be if Pele played in today's era 90s+ and Messi played back in Pele's era 50-70s.
    I think that Messi and Pre-Injured Ronaldo are probaly better than Maradona.
    but I still think Pele is the greatest footballer of all time.


    Here is a video of Pele I made
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7wWts_RNLQ"]Pele - The Greatest Of All Time - YouTube[/ame]


    And listen to the way this man speaks about Messi, you can tell that Messi is a special player that comes once in a long time.
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yozvl3y29Ow"]Lionel Messi - Destined To Be The Best 2012 ||HD|| - YouTube[/ame]


    Also watch this documentary of Messi, at the start of the video it shows some video clips of Messi playing when he was a young kid and just watch how good his dribbling and ball control was. And in this video Arsene Wenger said that Lionel Messi is the greatest of all time
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v08hvGWJlnk"]|| Lionel Messi || World's Greatest Player || ITV4 Documentary || - YouTube[/ame]
     


  2. Alessandro10

    Alessandro10 Member

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    He still has to prove himself big with Argentina, but at club level he's immense.
     
  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    He indeed says this but it is Wenger's believe that current football, at the highest level, is much better than in the past. He is right to the extent that if you put a vintage team in a time traveling machine, they have indeed no chance. Purely in terms of stamina alone, the improvements in that aspect are huge.
    Modern football is for a part science and Wenger himself has been one of the main catalysts in that developments. So in that aspect Messi is the best footballer of all-time. However the more nuanced picture is that every era is different and also football is standing on shoulders of past giants. The documentary you posted, I've seen that one, I didn't like it tbh, underlines that as well.
     
  4. tadm123

    tadm123 Member

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  5. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

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    First let Messi catching up with the likes Zidane, Ronaldo, Puskas then ... Cruijff, Di Stefano, Platini, Beckenbauer and Maradona .... then we come back to this thread

    Now first bold, in what sense that you think and conclude Pele's era was "weaker"? I am quite sure there are more names in TOP100 from past era's 60-80 than that of 90 to now with same 20 years span. You should wonder why

    2nd bold, It depedns what team and waht year. I am NOT too sure about that. IF ... yeah IF and ONLY IF. What about reality? Why don;t you imagine IF Messi was playing for Brazil66 (w/o Pele), and think that Brazilw could win? Gosh.

    Loook ... Brazil82 and 86 were even more talented in number of XI starting and FAILED to win 2times. Even Brazil06 were looking great in names as well so? Many forgot that Brazil62 won by Garrincha the greatest winger of all time and also the best dribbler of all time, ok? Unless you would (silly) think Messi was better and could do what Garrincha did in 62? Let's see how he will do in 2014 OK?

    3rd bold, that's very subjective bias and I just can NOT see why you think Ronaldo or Messi could be better than Maradona! I think you had NEVER watched Maradona playing back then, but a few clips of his footage, right?

    ==============================================

    In my book, if Pele was 10 as golden rule, Maradona hit 9.9

    The rest like Cruijff or Di Stefano could barely make 9.75 max in my rating ...

    Messi scored 9.25 until now, but he got full potential to hit passed 9.5 though
     
  6. El Negro Jefe

    El Negro Jefe Member

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  7. MrSoccerplayer

    MrSoccerplayer Member

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    haha.
     
  8. Pelefan

    Pelefan Member+

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    Messi is fantastic and a very classy guy and is the best player of this generation. He is fun to watch and considering the quality of players he faces today, it is impressive that he is able to break all this records. But he still hasn't won the World Cup and has not played to his potential in the ones he has participated in.

    As for the best player of all time, I would have to say Pele would be my favourite, obviously right? I don't think anybody would be able to break his record of 1281 goals in 1363 games, his record 77 goals in 92 games with the Brazilian national team, and his record 3 World Cup winning medals. This stats are just unbeatable, regardless of what era you came from. He was so influential and universally admired that the 2 sides in a civil war in Nigeria decided to declare a ceasefire in order to watch him play in an exhibition game.
    He is the youngest to score in the World Cup at 17 years, the youngest to accomplish a hat trick also at 17 in the World Cup, the youngest to participate and score in a World Cup finals match(where he scored 2 goals) at 17, all done during Brazil's World Cup championship 1958 campaign.

    Although it is true that Messi still has his best football ahead of him, at this stage of their careers, no one even comes close to Pele.
     
  9. y.o.n.k.o

    y.o.n.k.o Member

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    I agree with this. However, you know fully well that at the rate Messi is going, he is catching up to those names.....faster than some people would like to admit it. At the rate he is going....a WC title in 2014 and.....:eek:

    The players from the earlier decades stood out more than the players from the more recent decades. That is because the average players from more recent decades are of higher level than those from the earlier decades. Also, legends from the 50s, 60s and 70s were kind of pioneers in things they did with the ball. Many players from the 90s onwards can do things with the ball just as good. But they are not considered that great because it has become the norm. Just to be clear, I'm talking about tricks with the ball, moves, passes, etc.

    Things done with the ball in 50s - 80s have been taught to young players since the 90s.

    Yeah, I can imagine Messi from the present playing for Brazil in 1966. He would run rings around everyone. It wont even be a contest!

    The game in 2014 wont be the same as it was in 1962. Messi would do just as good as Garrincha if not even better in 1962. Messi is making fools of far more athletic defenders today than Garrincha or any other player did in the 60s.

    IMO we would never be able to tell who the greatest all-time player is, no matter what. Football is so different over the decades, it is not fair to anyone really. That is why we can at least agree that they were/are different great players for different eras/decades or certain periods of time.

    Just look at how many decades have passed and people still can't agree on who is the greatest player of all-time, Pele or Maradona. Some people would even throw Di Stefano into the mix.

    You say Pele was a 10 and Maradona a 9.9.....Why? Why isn't Maradona also a 10?
     
  10. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

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    First bold, fully agree that Messi has ONLY one way up and will even surpass some names in that list very soon... (Xfingers)

    second bold. yes he would run, but would he help the team to win WC is another story ...

    3rd bold, you're TOTALLY wrong!. Garrincha did dribble pass 10 men several times in his best day ... (note that he did dribble passed big and skillful defenders in Nilton and Daljma Santos and both were among the greatest DF of history) Messi passed 3,4 at best and who were them, Not Nesta, Canavaro who are smaller, less skillful ... Gosh ... I will wait and HOPE Messi will do 75% of what Garrincha did in WC62 and that will be enough to help Argentina to the final 2014

    Last bold, as a player, Maradona still had some "flaws" (consistency at best form) but not Pele (that's why) ... Maradona is the ONLY player who might be better in ball skills than Pele - Pele was more explosive and efficient in other hand.
    (this is just like Zico vs Ronaldo: Zico like Maradona may be more skillful but Ronaldo like Pele was just more explosive and efficient= at the end, many did rate Ronaldo > Zico for that sense)
     
  11. Alessandro10

    Alessandro10 Member

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    I would personally add Ronaldinho as the other player who is better then Pele in ball skills. Maradona wins it IMO in ball skills and also in pure technique(the best of all time in this department).
     
  12. Alessandro10

    Alessandro10 Member

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    Do you guys think that Messi has a chance to be the best ever dribbler? For me right now he's at the same level with Diego(who I rate second after Garrincha in dribbling), if not even better(he takes on players much often then Maradona did, at least from the vids that I've seen of Diego). Now I haven't seen a lot of Garrincha(mostly stories and his reputation), so it's hard to make a good opinion on him.
     
  13. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

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    Ronaldinho was more 'showboating" than Pele's , not true skills

    true skills = apply + results (not for nothing)

    Secondly, about dribble, you have to put who are DF both players faced during dribble ok?

    Maradona's era was the most difficult time with too many great DF: Scriea, Baresi, Maldini Bergomi Gentille Passarela Krol Costacurta ...

    Now Messi's era : old Puyo, old Rio, old Terry, old Nesta, declined Vidic, declined A Cole ... and whoelse? He could not pass Maicon , old Nesta in his last face off ... BTW ...

    HUGE difference .... (Maradona list >> Messi list even they are at their best)
     
  14. y.o.n.k.o

    y.o.n.k.o Member

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    Which names will he surpass do you think? I'm just curious.....

    In 1966 with Brazil, yes he would. He would run, dribble, pass and score.

    You are kidding, right? The defenders Garrincha faced were nowhere near as athletic as anything Messi has to face. And I doubt that the Brazilian would get past Nesta and Cannavaro today.

    Do you have any idea how much the defensive play of teams has evolved since the 60s?

    How do we know that Pele was also not consistent? We only have the good stories about him. The fact is that there is a lot more footage and info on Maradona than there is about Pele. You say Maradona might be the only one more skillful than Pele. Isn't that enough to rate him as equal?

    Many people might say Pele > Maradona or Maradona > Pele, just like Ronaldo > Zico or Zico > Ronaldo. The point is people do not do neither player enough justice and there is hardly an indisputable opinion settling the issue one way or another. In time, as Messi continues to accumulate more accomplishments and prove himself more, how can we do him and the past legends justice by ranking him objectively?

    The only thing I can be sure of is the fact that every decade/era had its great players. Those players were slightly ahead of their time and that is what made them stand out. We cannot ignore the fact that with each passing decade the game has changed, tactics have changed, exposure has improved, etc. Some changes/improvements have made it perhaps easier on modern players, but other changes/improvements have made it harder for them at the same time. Things like better pitches, shoes, foul rules make it easier. But things like exposure, scouting, tactics, athleticism make it harder. Think about this: how many teams in 60s really new enough about Pele before they had to play against him - what were his tendencies, what would work to stop him, were teams doing anything specific collectively to counter his game? Now, hold that thought and think about how much every team knows about how Messi plays.
     
  15. y.o.n.k.o

    y.o.n.k.o Member

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    During Maradona's era there were better individual defenders because that was the way to defend. Today, during Messi's era (isn't it funny to call it "Messi's era"?) the defending is done more collectively and it has been done that way for a long time now (before Messi stepped into the limelight).

    BTW, what made defenders of the 80s or early 90s so great? Their ability to deal 1v1 with great players. I don't think we can find that many videos of Maradona embarrassing such great defenders as Scirea, Baresi, Maldini, Gentile, etc.
     
  16. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

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    In the doom days of the likes Zidane Ronaldo Ronaldinho... now it' Messi's era... is not it a "compliment"?

    Yes you're close, as DF in the past must be good in 1 vs 1 (ball skills in control, running timing tackle and other "dirty tricks" of which Messi and CRonaldo were more lucky not to deal with in that sense.

    Looks at this clip: Maradona was knocked off on ground no less than dozen times by hacking, chopping and slapping from the back: mostly by Gentille
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk1iRg4Xt-M"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk1iRg4Xt-M[/ame]

    Believe me, Messi would not survive in this game with Gentille constantly beside with all dirty tricks ...

    ===========================================

    Look at Baresi quote during his interview with FourFourTwo:

    One-on-One
    Your questions answered by football's biggest legends
    Franco Baresi

    Who was the toughest opponent you ever played against?

    I've faced so many. In Italy in the early '80s Juve had Platini, and Rossi. Napoli had Maradona and Careca, Inter had Altobelli; all players of great talent. If I have to pick one, it'd be Maradona; when he was on form, there was almost no way of stopping him


    http://fourfourtwo.com/interviews/one-on-one/337/article.aspx

    ========================================

    .. and from Maldini about Ronaldo:

    "Il fenomeno was the most difficult opponent I ever faced after Maradona"
     
  17. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

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    Only for this portion ...

    Athletics as whom? Canavaro a 5'8 man? Nor Nesta was that athletic! Gosh you should go back to Euro2000 and saw the young Henry (not even Ronaldo nor Messi) had tortured Canavaro and costed him a yellow finally. Canavaro was SO OVERATED in my book. He was NOT in my TOP25 best DF period . And in case you forgot Messi was STOPPED many times by "older Nesta" in last UCL10.

    I said before, N.Santos was stronger, taller, more athlectic and MUCH MORE skillful than both Nesta + Canavaro together, and guess what? N.Santos was TWICE been nutmeged by Garrincha in a row ... Garrincha did once, and stopped running waited for N.Santos to catch up, and did it again ...

    Side note: nutmeg = put the ball thru DF legs (whic is an INSULT to any DF)- Garrincha was king of that, not only dribble by simply passing the DF!
    ===================================================
    Look at this: http://www.thehardtackle.com/2011/the-simple-game-and-the-spirit-of-garrincha-the-joy-of-millions-part-1/

    USSR were always favourite to win against Brazil and in fact, favorites to win the World Cup. But then it happened! The greatest three minutes of footballing history. Twenty seconds into the match, the ball came to Garrincha. His first victim was Kuznetov, an experienced left-back. Feigning to go to the left, Garrincha went right, leaving a hapless Kuznetov lying on the pitch. But wait, it wasn’t over yet. Seconds later, the left-back is back on his feet, this time supported by Voinov and Krijveski. Pulling the ball away from both of them, Garrincha darted to the right and took the first shot of the match. The ball ricocheted off Yashin’s left post. Garrincha returned to the middle of the park, as if nothing out of the ordinary had just happened. A swift interpassing involving Vava, Pele and Garrincha led to Pele’s first shot, but sadly the ball flew over the post. Drenched in sweat, the great Yashin wondered what they have come up against. Exactly a minute later, Vava gave Brazil the lead from Didi’s through-ball. The game was only three minutes old and the favored Russians were already on the back-seat. 87 more minutes of torture later, a new Brazil emerged.
    Dribbling as an art has never seen a better exponent than Garrincha, and in all probability, it never will. The freedom with which he carefully cajoled the ball, stroking it gently, covering it from all possible dangers was a joy to watch. It was as if the ball was his little toy and all he wanted was to play with it. The creative spontaneity aside, what made him special was he not only played to the audience but also got results; and still at the end of the day, remained as humble as they come. In a sport dominated by results, the freedom of spirit that he displayed was extremely rare.


    =================================================

    Defensive evolution? Hell no

    It's just the strategy and tactics are changing to make Football more toward "entertainment show" rather than true "artistic sport" .

    To cope with the fact of more "atheletic but more clumsy defenders of today games", Caoches gotta changed tactics to zonal defense + pressing play. That's all and for that same reason, they could NOT AFFORD to do "man marking" like before ...
     
  18. y.o.n.k.o

    y.o.n.k.o Member

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    Yes, it is a compliment to call it "Messi's era" as it indicates that he is the dominant player.

    Messi has received his fair shared of bad and cynical tackles. Of course not as much as Maradona from Gentile, but Messi hasn't been treated gently either. The difference now is that those tackles are punished with cards. Defenders would gladly take a card than be humiliated by Messi, yet they still get humiliated anyway.

    Maybe Gentile would not have the chance to be so close to Messi......
    ===========================================

    These are examples of great defenders like Baresi and Maldini giving respect to Ronaldo and Maradona. It doesn't mean they were humiliated by Ronaldo and Maradona. I'm not denying that Ronaldo and Maradona were difficult to defend against. But I do not remember Maradona and Ronaldo humiliating Baresi and Maldini.

    Athleticism is not just size. First learn the definition of athleticism. Second, Henry did not torture Cannavaro at Euro2000. Cannavaro is overrated in your book? That is because you have the wrong book. Cannavaro was a great defender - he proved that.

    Messi was not stopped by "older Nesta".

    Prove that N.Santos was stronger, taller and more athletic than Nesta+Cannavaro.

    I now exactly what "nutmeg" is and how humiliating it is for the defenders. You are not the one who is going to teach me.....

    I'm familiar with the legend of Garrincha. I think he was a great player. But that doesn't mean that he would the same in the modern game.


    How clueless are you? Strategy and tactics changing = defensive evolution. What do you think "defensive evolution" means?

    "Athletic but more clumsy"? LMFAO! How can one be athletic and clumsy at the same time?
    Wait, are you saying that zonal defense + pressing play requires less effort and ability from the defensive players? LMFAO again! This is the most ridiculous statement ever.......Go read some books and educate yourself about football....Gosh (as you like to say)
     
  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Some are quick to forget that Messi wasn't the star of the match against every opponent. Liverpool, Chelsea, Manchester United (when Eto'o and Xavi was MOTM), Internazionale. To name a few.
     
  20. tadm123

    tadm123 Member

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    Of course he wasn't the MOTM against EVERY opponent.

    Liverpool? lol.
     
  21. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

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    First and 2nd bold... Go watch the games don't just argue ... with me .
    Messi was STOPPED= did nothing as old Nesta (>34 now) kept him at bay, with no LESS THAN 10times - see and count

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXUVVh-S4pI&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXUVVh-S4pI&feature=related[/ame]

    Go watch the first 30minutes of Euro2000 to see how Canavaro was tortured by Henry. Here is a quick clip to see how the "great" DF in Canavaro (again NOT in my book) did to stop Henry: pushing LOL ... (what a "great technique") as you can compare to how nesta did to take the ball away from Messi. Big difference:
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3b9qpUoafZo"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3b9qpUoafZo[/ame]


    In 89, it took 3 Baresi + Maldini + Costacurta to keep Maradona less effective ... and in 1998, it took 3 Maldini + Costacurta + Desailly to keep Ronaldo a quiet game


    3rd bold, because there is NO such thing ... as "defensive evolution" any time last decade or so... as you said (dreaming or inventing yourself)

    4rd bold, of course "athletic" is not about size, pity you not to see that. Let's see some examples :

    - As striker, Nistelruud was much more "athletic" than Ronaldo, Van Basten, but same time more "clumsy" in ball control, dribble compared to fenomeno, or Vanbasten

    - As midfielder, Lampard is more "athletic" and also more clumsy than G.Best or Laudrup

    - As defender, Roque Junior was more athletic but more clumsy than Krol, Nesta
     
  22. y.o.n.k.o

    y.o.n.k.o Member

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    I've watched the games. Now you go read some more books and educate yourself.....then argue with me.

    How did Nesta stopped Messi exactly? Messi created a goal by outpacing the whole AC Milan defense (not shown in your clip). The video you have posted shows Nesta cut out a few passes directed towards Messi. That is not stopping Messi. Then the few times he goes 1v1 against Messi he either hacks him or pulls him.

    I have the Euro2000 final on tape. There is not Henry torture on Cannavaro. The video you show is from a Barca vs Real M game. The funny thing is what Cannavaro does on Henry is the same thing Nesta does on Messi. Yet you criticize Cannavaro while praising Nesta. Your double standards are pathetic and childish.....not to say also uneducated.

    Prove it with a video. Just writing it doesn't make it true.

    There is no such thing as "defensive evolution"? LMFAO, yeah ok.....whatever, fanboy......Do yourself a favor and stop writing such nonsense. Once again, change in strategy and tactics = defensive evolution.

    Man, you really are brainless. I told you "athletic" is not just about size. Now you repeat my words and say pity that I do not see that? What medications are you taking? Whatever they are, double the dose for more effect.

    Van Nistelrooy wasn't more athletic than Ronaldo or Van Basten!

    Not true

    Also not true.

    What is your definition of "athletic" and what is your definition of "clumsy"? More athletic means bigger, stronger, faster, more mobile and better endurance. Clumsy is someone who is slower and less mobile, also has less balance. You can't be more athletic and more clumsy at the same time. If someone is clumsy he isn't more athletic, period. Like I said, read some more books and educate yourself!

    ....GOSH.....:D
     
  23. Estel

    Estel Member

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    Yonko, what you are not getting is that the above in essence is actually the art of defending. The object of Nesta's marking was unable to score (and his assist was a result of poor defending from another defender who interfered to try and help Nesta but who ultimately did not clear the ball which Messi was then able to pass to the scorer. It was also because none of the remaining defenders picked up the scorer who was completely unmarked in their box). Furthermore, Nesta either stopped the object of his marking from recieving the ball or used other available methods to impede his ability to score. He was thus basically doing what a top class defender is supposed to do.

    In any case, Nesta only hacked Messi once and conceded a couple of other soft fouls on him at other times (infact the foul for which he was penalised for pushing on Messi near the center of the field was much softer than the push that Dani Alves gave to Nesta at the touchline for which Alves was not penalised). Rest of the times, he either won the ball back or put it out of play without conceding a foul to Messi. Thus all in all it was a great defensive performance by him, the likes of which actually made the CL a tough competition to score in in its hey days at the turn of the century.
     
  24. tadm123

    tadm123 Member

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    loool
    You forgot the part where he left Nesta and Abate behind for the most important part of the match, the goal. Definately was stopped! That said I hope Nesta continues this amazing form so Barca passes to the semifinals.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2Vp5eha3HI"]Lionel Messi & Pedro vs AC Milan - YouTube[/ame]
     
  25. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

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    That's even pity on you as you confirmed watchig the games , YET unable to see the difference:

    1- Man to boy (Nesta vs Messi): (look at Messi crying for God on the gorund after being ROBBED the ball right between his feet ready to score) HEROIC and LEGENDARY tackle by Nesta

    http://www.yourepeat.com/watch/?v=w6ik2G9TemM

    2- "Boy to man" : Canaravo pushed Henry out of the pitch as his only technique to stop the man.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3b9qpUoafZo"]henry vs lass & canavaro .. barcelona 6 real madrid 2 .. - YouTube[/ame]

    and ...

    Canavaro conceded a PK to Ronaldo as the only means to stop him scoring (1:19) [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofcAUweQGSA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofcAUweQGSA[/ame]

    Even a chile could see huge difference from 1 (Nesta at 34 passed peak) and 2 Canavaro at 24-30 peak)
     

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