Replacement Referees Thread [R]

Discussion in 'MLS: News & Analysis' started by tab5g, Feb 12, 2014.

  1. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

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    A prologue of the labor-management excitement to come in the year ahead.

    If MLS referees didn't show up at a league match, would anyone notice? (I kid, I kid.)

    As MLS season nears, referee negotiations are ‘some distance apart’

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...referee-negotiations-are-some-distance-apart/



  2. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

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  3. SoCalYid

    SoCalYid Member+

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    This is serious, we might have to bring in replacement refs. Granted their performance wouldn't be any worse than the current MLS refs but it's a pain going to random pubs to find those guys.
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  4. Haig

    Haig Member+

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    People are gonna love it when scab refs cost their team a game or two. The current MLS refs are a mixed bag in game situations, and a bad call or three is made every week, but they're generally experienced and know how to keep up with an MLS level of play. God only knows what the picket crossers will be like, but it's not like there's a secret pool of great refs who are just waiting for their big break.
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  5. EvilTree

    EvilTree Member+

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    who assigns NASL/USL refs?
  6. SoCalYid

    SoCalYid Member+

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    Oh yeah that would be terrible, it's not like that doesn't happen already far too often already. I was just joking but in general MLS reffing is poor. Hopefully those non-economic agreements include more training.
  7. GreatGonzo

    GreatGonzo Member+

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    Pretty much everyone everywhere thinks the reffing is poor. NFL / NCAA, NBA / NCAA, MLB, EPL, World Cup referees that aren't in the top 4 referees worldwide, etc etc etc. When the refs do get better, they're still going to make calls that piss you off as a fan and you're still going to think they're terrible.

    I really don't think there's going to be a point where the fans are happy with the refereeing, especially with this constant echo chamber conditioning them to think that the referees are currently abysmal. When referees have bad games (and they do, don't get me wrong), everyone is eager to jump on them. The only time the league says anything is when referees make mistakes, never when they do well. The vast majority of comments from coaches about referees are negative. But when referees have great games? No one says anything. The only thing that fans ever hear is "the referees are terrible". There are rarely any positive public statements about the referees, and this creates the perception that the referees are, by and large, terrible.

    The only people who are really looking at the referees critically are assessors, and a) those reports aren't made public, and b) if they are made public and the scores are better than fans think they should be, the fans will accuse the assessors of incompetence or of being biased towards the referees.

    While I think the refereeing in MLS could certainly use improvement (though admittedly, my main improvement would probably make people think refereeing has gotten worse, since I think refs are too lenient and need to be more quick on drawing red cards), I don't think it's as dire as most people seem to think. If people watch games (not including their team, of course) with a critical eye towards the referee, I think opinions will change. But that's not going to happen.
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2014
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  8. Westside Cosmo

    Westside Cosmo BigSoccer Yellow Card

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    If we get to replacements refs, we can use a standard like they do in baseball batting average like the Mendoza line (.210 average). We will call it the "Jasen Anno Line" - its completely subjective as in "would this game have been as much of a disaster if Jasen Anno has reffed it?"
  9. SoCalYid

    SoCalYid Member+

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    We really need to get a sense of humor, it was a joke. Still if we want to get into this, I wouldn't want to be the one with the unenviable position of defending MLS reffing standards. There's always complaints about reffing standards, I'm aware of this, but MLS reffing by comparison is pretty poor. I watch EPL, Serie A, MLS, CL/EL and Copa Libertadores regularly and occasionally I watch Brazilian Serie A (family ties), Liga MX and La Liga.

    That's generally how I judge the reffing, by comparison not by public perception. This isn't what people have told me rather this is what I've seen watching MLS weekly and seeing things like Dallas scoring two offside goals against the Galaxy which the AR somehow misses.

    If the physical contact was called as poorly as it was in the EPL I would be satisfied. If decisions were missed as much as they are in Italy due to incompetence I would be satisfied. I'm not asking for perfection rather the same crappy standard as other top leagues, that would be an improvement. Typically on MLS dates I try to get in like 3 matches plus the Galaxy on a weekend, you can see me in the PBP threads. Every week you see several incidents in each match which just leaves you scratching your head and it's noticeably different then in other leagues.

    The moments of game changing incompetence bother me but more regularly the physical contact which is allowed and not dealt with so it escalates completely killing the flow of matches bothers me. That's the refs job to take control and too often it turns into the wild west. I think the match Seattle v Dallas was a good example of this (I believe that was the one). That happens far too often because of the physical contact refs allow, that has as much of a detrimental effect on the flow of the match as if the whistle is blown every time a player is touched.

    Then there are just he basic mistakes like when the Galaxy played Seattle the ref missed the blatant push off against Omar because he wasn't paying attention and poorly positioned, yet seemed to spot Dunivant's "vicious assault" on a Seattle player which called back our goal. He was for some reason watching the corner being taken never even glancing at the scrum before the ball being played in.

    I don't have time to list them all but I don't think it's all public perception, reffing standards in MLS definitely need to improve. On average it's the worst of all the leagues I watch regularly. There's no reason because we aren't a top 15 league that we have to settle for poor refereeing standards.
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  10. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

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    To piggy-back on @GreatGonzo's post, it seems fans are accepting that we don't have top-quality players, but not that we don't have top-quality refs. Those things go hand-in-hand IMO.
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  11. Boloni86

    Boloni86 Member+

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    Generally I'd blame the coaches for the excessive physical play in MLS games. Several teams in MLS are built specifically to bruise. There's a pretty widespread expectation from coaches to get stuck in and battle. San Jose, Kansas City, Philly, Houston, DC all come to mind as teams that probably sacrifice a fair bit of creativity in order to get stuck in and disrupt opponents.

    Not saying the reffing couldn't be a little better in this regard, but it's not the ref's job to make games more beautiful.
  12. SoCalYid

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    It's their job to set up the boundaries and let players know when things are going over the top. Too often I feel because of how lenient and inconsistent the refs are they lose control of matches. If the players are aware of the limit they'll be less inclined to take it to that physical level to get an advantage, it's only natural.
  13. Boloni86

    Boloni86 Member+

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    MLS is a particularly difficult league to set boundaries for because so many players go in so hard.

    I think MLS refs are more or less on par with the level of the players they're officiating. Good but not great. Things are a lot better than they used to be but there's still about half a dozen MLS coaches who set up very cynical tactics that just bring out the worst in everyone.

    I just think complaining about MLS refs is so old. They've improved a lot over the years. Anyone who doesn't think so probably wasn't watching MLS 10-15 years ago.
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  14. SoCalYid

    SoCalYid Member+

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    They do it because they can get away with it.

    I don't understand why the level of player should determine what constitutes foul play or performance of referees. To me it's like we're giving players excuses for playing cynically which possibly is the problem. There's some things given the status of the league we have to settle for but poor refereeing?

    Just being honest, I don't really care what the league was like 15 years ago, I watched occasionally but it only started to get interesting around 2005-ish. I'll be complaining about the refereeing until it improves. It personally effects my viewing experience and effects matches too often. You can choose to ignore it if you like that's your choice.
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2014
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  15. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

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    Better players means better play to ref, more experience, more money to pay refs (both for training and to have more of them be full-time), etc. Its not a direct correlation (great refs come from lousy football countries and vice versa) but its no coincidence that most of the best refs come from the countries where most of the best football is played.
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  16. fuzzx

    fuzzx Member+

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    Honest question, do teams/leagues with more talent foul less? or at the very least are they less physical?

    I only watch MLS, so I have no standard by which to judge.
  17. Boloni86

    Boloni86 Member+

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    That's an interesting question ... The top leagues in Europe (Spain, Germany, Italy and France) all average 30 fouls per game. England is the only deviation at under 25 per game. Few people would suggest that England is less physical, but rather that less contact gets called.

    As for which leagues are most physical? That's purely subjective I'd think ... A lot depends on the tactics of the day. I watch all those leagues and I couldn't give you a real answer.
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  18. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

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  19. PhillyMLS

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  20. profiled

    profiled Moderator Staff Member

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    Apparently the referees for this weekends games will be replacements as the referees have been locked out.

    So here's a thread to discuss, compare and contrast, and generally piss and moan about the referees.
  21. bwidell

    bwidell Member+

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    "PRO has recruited a highly-qualified pool of replacement officials all of whom have officiated at the professional level. The pool includes international FIFA officials who have moved here from overseas, former MLS officials and officials who have worked in other professional leagues in the US who PRO believes are qualified to officiate at the MLS level. As part of PRO’s contingency plan, the replacement officials attended a preseason training camp last week."

    http://www.proreferees.com/news-pro-lockout.php
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  22. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

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  23. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

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    It's a bit of a shame that non-union refs are willing to work these games in spite of the lock-out of the unionized refs.

    But whatever.

    My enjoyment of MLS games as scheduled is more important than the labor concerns of the unionized/regular refs.

    (or is this not the place to generally piss and moan about the breakdown of the collective bargaining process for these employees?

    And those posts should be placed over at: http://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/mls-referee-union-seeks-cba.2000538/)
  24. GreatGonzo

    GreatGonzo Member+

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    Definitely going to be an interesting weekend. From the thread on this in the Referee forum, the biggest question mark is likely the ARs. Don't be surprised if there are a lot of incorrect offside calls. I wonder when we're going to see the list of who is going to referee each of the games.

    Hopefully they're putting one of the more qualified replacement refs on the Seattle - SKC game.
  25. Harper916

    Harper916 Member+

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    I can't wait until the soccer version of these:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
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