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Reserve league integrating with USLPro

Discussion in 'MLS: News & Analysis' started by PhillyMLS, Dec 18, 2012.

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  1. SYoshonis

    SYoshonis Member+

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    I'm trying to track down the organizational chart for USSF, but I do know that the PDL is regarded as separate from the USASA for the purposes of the US Open Cup, i.e., the USASA has an allotted number of USOC spots (which include the NPSL) and the PDL teams qualify separately.
     


  2. SYoshonis

    SYoshonis Member+

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    What is the "NCAA problem?"
     
  3. SUDano

    SUDano Member+

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    If I may, some would consider it a problem while others wouldn't. If your perspective is having an integrated partnership between amateur organizations and professional organization then its a problem. NCAA does not consider itself primarily as a development organization for professional soccer but rather an educational method to teach through competitive sports. They feel that participation in each game is an important educational method they feel that 3 month seasons and not full year participation to take away from class is important. This is less influential in other sports because FIFA International soccer standard is 3 subs no reentry and almost 10-11 month intensive consistent training which has been debated by NCAA soccer powers for years. In soccer multiple substitutions and a packed 3 month season drastically change how the game is played, taught, and evaluated.
    In a nutshell the 'problem; with NCAA soccer is it will never be beholden to what MLS and professional soccer needs or wants in player development. They can't fix, control or influence what is essentially an educational entity.
     
  4. sitruc

    sitruc Member+

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    There are satellite campuses, but I believe UVa–Wise is the only actual school that is still not independent. I don't believe VCU was ever officially affiliated with UVA.
     


  5. SYoshonis

    SYoshonis Member+

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    So, it's not so much a "problem" as a "difference of opinion."

    It's kind of sad how often the distinction between the two is lost, especially around here.
     
  6. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

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    It is comical how so many people around here think that the NCAA (an organization predicated entirely on furthering EDUCATION through sports) should abandon their core principles, screw the education aspect of college, and turn NCAA soccer into a professional soccer academy for MLS and the US National Team.
     
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  7. SYoshonis

    SYoshonis Member+

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    And that's not going to change any time soon. The NCAA has to have examples it can point to of how it actually does what it says it does, since that sort of adherence to principle is so obviously absent in football and basketball.
     
  8. SUDano

    SUDano Member+

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    Let's not get too PC. A significant difference of opinion can reasonably be considered a 'problem' for those doing the disagreeing on both sides.
     
  9. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

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    But here's the rub. The NCAA isn't a problem. It is what it is. And it always will be.

    The REAL problem is that there aren't enough professional youth academies around the country to properly develop young American players.

    And that is not, never has been and never will be the responsibility of the NCAA. And those that can't wrap their heads around that are part of the "problem".
     
  10. SUDano

    SUDano Member+

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    To have 5 substitutes with no reentry per game, or have the game time move upward with stoppage time isn't abandoning their core principles or screwing the education aspect of college. Its recognizing that many of their student athletes on high level team may benefit to pursue and compete against others in an international standard of sport. Its about balance, sometimes NCAA uses the 'its all about education mantra' when in fact its about control, influence, obstinance, and money. You can't tell me that NCAA is making all the changes in football conferences, bowl system, and BCS championships because they are trying to hold onto their core principles of education.
     
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  11. SUDano

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    I agree with you on that half of the arguement but I also think the NCAA can make some simple changes in their game to recongnize the fact many of their student athletes may benefit pursuing their chosen profession of soccer. Isn't that also an important aspect of the educational experience, having higher education do what they can to assist you in your ultimate chosen pursuit of your dream profession? They constantly make changes in the big money sports but much less in soccer. I bet one day when MLS are taking alot of their athletes they will change their game and we'll all say 'but what happened to your education first declaration. They are rational people making rational decisions when they benefit. They don't have to now so they won't, but one day they will have to to stay relevant.
     
  12. JasonMa

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    You're right, I can't. Mainly because the NCAA isn't making most (if any) of those changes. The NCAA doesn't recognize a national champion in FBS football because the bowl system exists instead of the playoffs. They do license bowls but I don't think they've ever had much to do with the BCS. The conference re-alignment is largely being riven by football as well and while the NCAA has some basic say in what schools have NCAA accreditation and what constitutes a conference they have little to do with what conference a school chooses to be in.
     
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  13. AndyMead

    AndyMead America Uber Alles

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    A lot of folks get worked up over an organization that runs a 3 month season.

    The NCAA isn't a problem, and it doesn't really have a problem.

    Players don't transfer from an NCAA program to a PDL team, then back again.

    Feel free to count whatever summer amateur league as a player's "club team".

    Let me reiterate: The NCAA season is less than 3 months for most players. Mid-August to conference tournaments (if they qualify) in early November.

    The NCAA is always going to be separate from the rest of organized soccer.

    The three most powerful sporting organizations in the world are FIFA, the NCAA, and the IOC. And I'm thinking the IOC is a distant third.

    The only way to get the NCAA to change is to reduce its perceived relevance. And the only way to do that is to build up the alternatives to college soccer. I'm not sure that's going to happen any time soon. Most college soccer players aren't getting any athletic scholarship funds. They're playing college soccer by choice - because they choose to attend college.
     
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  14. GVPATS77

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    But it does create added risk to the health and safety of the STUDENT athletes. And even if those changes were made, it doesn't change the fact that practice time will still be limited based on educational principles, and the season will still only run from Aug-Nov.

    It isn't the responsibility of the NCAA to groom players for a professional sports career. It is up to the individual player to decide what is the best career path for them is they want to pursue a career in professional soccer.

    What I can tell you is that the NCAA isn't making changes to conferences. That would be the University presidents.

    I can also tell you that if the NCAA and Universities weren't making money off of college football, (and to a much smaller extent, college basketball, no other NCAA sports would even exist. Which in turn would lead to tens of thousands of STUDENT athletes without an avenue to get a college education.
     
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  15. BostonRed

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    If the NCAA were that concerned about matching the rules of the game with the professional environment, they would eliminate metal bats in baseball, change the shot clock and 3-point line in basketball and require 2 feet in bounds for a catch to count in football.

    The NCAA estimates about 1% of its male soccer players "go pro" (compared to less than 2% for men's basketball and football). Baseball is about 11.6% (I am assuming the much greater opportunities in minor league baseball give players an easier shot to at least try). There may be competitive and aesthetic reasons for changing to the FIFA standards, but preparing for future competitions isn't likely to be among them.
     
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  16. GVPATS77

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    I must have missed Professional Athlete as one of the majors I could have chosen from when I enrolled in college.

    Grooming teenagers to become professional soccer players is NOT in any way part of higher education. It isn't. No. Not ever.

    If a young man enters college, knowing that his chosen career path is to become a professional soccer player, he does so knowing what the NCAA is.

    You can probably count the number of college basketball programs that are profitable on your fingers and toes. Its not many.

    The day that NCAA college soccer is a big money sport is the day that they will need to alter rules to appeal to a wider audience. Seeing how that will never happen in a billion years, I don't suggest holding your breath.

    Same reason why college baseball has different rules than MLB baseball.

    I'll take that bet considering MLS has been taking the best NCAA players every year since 1996, and the emergence of youth academies further pulling players away hasn't moved the needle at all.

    NCAA soccer is already irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Just like NCAA hockey and NCAA baseball are largely irrelevant in their sports as well.

    They will never have to change, because relevancy isn't important for NCAA soccer to exist. Kind of like women's field hockey doesn't need to be relevant to exist.
     
  17. SUDano

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    That's what I'm saying NCAA is a facade of educational piety when it wants to be and a look the other way enabler to big money when they want too. They are hypocrites.
    'No one, it seems, and that goes to the heart of what is wrong with college football today. Give the NCAA a lacrosse championship to put on and it does fine, but the organization is a sham at best when it comes to big-money sports, providing little more than a cover for the big schools and conferences to make even more money.
    If there was any doubt about that, it was answered this week when the NCAA meekly obliged its Bowl Championship Series masters by licensing the Fiesta Bowl for postseason play despite revelations the bowl has served as a virtual ATM over the years for its former executive director and his many cronies. The NCAA slapped the Fiesta with one year's probation, during which time officials apparently can't spend any more bowl money on strippers or golf junkets.'
    http://www.nola.com/bcs/index.ssf/2011/05/ncaa_says_it_doesnt_oversee_co.html
     
  18. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

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    I am going to slightly disagree with you here. How is the mission of preparing a student for a career as a soccer player significantly different than preparing them for a career as an engineer? As ABET accredits engineering programs doesn't the NCAA accredit athletic programs? Its ultimately the school's job to prepare the student, not the NCAA's, but the NCAA does play a role.

    (Now if you want to argue that universities shouldn't be career prep organizations that's a separate argument I've seen, but that's a completely different scope than what I think you're saying)
     
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  19. SUDano

    SUDano Member+

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    What creates added risk? They'd be playing about the same amount of minutes. Just not every game. This isn't U12.
    If this were true NCAA wouldn't have made all those changes with professionalism and sports in mind. Remember them changing the baskeball age limits and now college players can play with professional soccer players without losing eligibility and the hundred other rules they've adjusted knowing how they impact players and their ultimate goal of professional sports.
    This is a naive view. NCAA is run by large school presidents and athletic directors to maximze revenues.
    Another naive view. College athletics have been budgeted as an educational expense for decades, only recently has the big money entered into the picture. Having college athletics reflect the needs of its players is not mutually exclusive to big money.
     
  20. BostonRed

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    The age limit to enter the NBA is not set by the NCAA. It is part of the NBA labor agreement and was agreed to by the NBA Players' Association. The NCAA has no control over the NBA and its rules.

    The change in the rules to allow pre-college players to play with pros was made to recognize the number of athletes who came up through the European (and other) system where amateur players were playing and practicing with pros. You'll note that earlier in this thread it was emphasized "current" college students can't play/practice with pros, only those who have yet to start. This spans all sports, not just soccer.
     
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  21. GVPATS77

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    No, but we are by and large talking about 17-21 year olds.

    Here's just one of a million scenarios where limited substitutions with no re-entry can jeopardize the health of a player.

    Player a picks up an injury late in the first half of a game. Under current rules, a coach can sub that player off so they can get medical attention on the sideline, and if they are OK, be sent back into the game at a later point.

    With limited substitutions, a coach will be hesitant to sub out that player, opting to wait until halftime where then can let their medical staff make an assessment. But in those extra minutes where the injured player is left on the field, they are at a much higher risk of increased injury, possibly permanent.

    Do you really need for me to spell out for you all of the ways that limited substitutions will alter the way that coaches deal with injured and potentially injured players during an in-game situation?
     
  22. SUDano

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    Umm. They did change the composite of metal bats to not exceed wooden bats. This new BBCOR standard effectively requires non-wood bats (metal and composite) to produce batted ball speeds no greater than wood.
    Umm. They did change the 3 pt line. The NCAA adopted the 19-foot, 9-inch line nationally in 1986 . [3] In 2007, the NCAA lengthened the men's three point distance to 20 feet 9 inches,
    And if your point is to bring up every irrelevant rule as your example please realize this minutia has nothing to do with the core competition of the games. Substituion rules are in fact at the core of how games are played and taught. If basketball or football had a restrictive substituion rule with no re-entry don't you think that difference between college and pro would create a drastic difference in how their games were taught, trained, and played? College soccer has a false imposed frantic pace to them because they have a different substition rule. I'm not saying they will change it but we all have to recognize relevant rule differences and inconsequential ones.
     
  23. GVPATS77

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    The main difference to me is that along the way to earning an Engineering degree, a person is also developing other skills that can be translated to other careers. Whereas "studying" strictly to be a professional soccer player develops skills for being a soccer player and nothing else.

    There's a lot more to it than just that, but again, if a player wants to go to a professional soccer career training academy, there are options other than the NCAA. The player just needs to be good enough for those options to open up to them.
     
  24. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

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    And the current NCAA president of repeatedly said that he wishes the NBA would change the rule to either allow high school players to enter the draft directly, or to force them to stay in school for at least 2 years.
     
  25. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

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    NCAA also has an optional mercy rule if a team is up by 10 runs after a certain point, allows for double header games to only be 7 innings long, it is illegal to intentionally run into a player while running the bases in an attempt to jar the ball loose (its also an automatic ejection from the game). It allows a pitcher to be both a pitcher and a designated hitter, and even if he is pulled from the game as a pitcher, is allowed to remain in the game as a DH.

    But I'm sure you knew all that too right?

    The NCAA does not give a shit about adhering to the standards used by professional sports ---> even in the "big money" sports.

    NBA plays 4 quarters. NCAA plays two halves.
    NBA shot clock is 24 seconds. NCAA shot clock is 35 seconds.
    NBA 6 fouls = ejection. NCAA 5 fouls equals ejection.
    NBA 3 point line is further away than NCAA 3 point line.

    There are differences between the NCAA and NFL also. They are more subtle, but are different enough to be noticeable.
     
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