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restart ?

Discussion in 'Referee' started by john rod, Mar 4, 2014.

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  1. john rod

    john rod Member

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    Jan 8, 2005
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    kingman,az
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    United States
    I was centering a U-10 game. the coach, also Pres. of the league was standing right on the touch line [and yes I know he was not in his tech area where he belonged] one of his sub players was sitting right next to him. the ball was kicked towards the coach/Pres and would have gone into touch, except the boy reached out and stopped it right on the touch-line. I blew my whisle and restarted with a dropped ball. figuring it was quick and easy and would look right to everyone. since I have never had this happen before...now I am wondering if I was right or wrong. if wrong what would have been the correct restart?
    thanks Rod in AZ
     
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  2. soccerman771

    soccerman771 Member

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    FC Schalke 04
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    Dropped ball is the correct restart here.
     
  3. kayakhorn

    kayakhorn Member

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    Location:
    Arkansas
    That is essentially a substitute entering the field illegally and interfering with play. The result would be a caution for the player and an IFK restart. I certainly wouldn't advocate showing a yellow card to a U10 player under these circumstances, but the IFK restart would still be appropriate.

    Edit: If the player's hands broke the plane of the line, the restart would be an IFK. If the player remained completely outside the field of play and stopped the ball while it was still on the line, I suppose a dropped ball would be correct.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2014
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  4. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

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    Dec 24, 2005
    For an U-10 game you did just fine. No-one else would know any difference anyway!
    Take home message is to make sure coach and subs stay away from the line.

    PH
     
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  5. R.U. Kiddingme

    R.U. Kiddingme Member

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    iowa
    Heck, if this was a rec league, I'd probably just go with the appropriate throw in if it was the 1st time and it was uncontested.
    Of course we should thank the kid for trying to help but to also remind him of the rules so that they don't repeat the mistake.
    Depends on the kid I think, some kids feel real bad when something like this happens and there is no need to make them feel any worse as long as they understand why not to do it in the future.

    Usually they are just trying to help and don't know any better.

    Competitive league may be a bit different, but in general, at that age you were fine.
     
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  6. R.U. Kiddingme

    R.U. Kiddingme Member

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    Now you got to make it all complicated. :)
    Interesting though, mind fleshing that out a bit?
     
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  7. kayakhorn

    kayakhorn Member

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    Excuse the formatting (or lack thereof)

    From the new ATR:

    upload_2014-3-4_15-17-25.png
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2014
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  8. john rod

    john rod Member

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    kingman,az
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    Thanks guys. you know this happened so quick , and it is one of those weird things you never plan on dealing with. I am glad that I did the right thing. another one that I wont forget.
    Rod in AZ
     
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  9. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

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    Technically, unless you give the caution (with or without showing the plastic as apporpriate to your league), there is no basis for giving an IFK. The IFK is the result of the caution. In a rec league, the first time it happens, as long as it is innocent, I'm going with a DB and a lecture.
     
  10. kayakhorn

    kayakhorn Member

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    I think I disagree with you here. The IFK is the result of stopping play for the misconduct of entering the field illegally. The caution is another result of the misconduct. If a substitute enters the field (even barely) to stop the ball ,the only truly correct restart is an IFK. That said, in a U10 game where the player makes an honest mistake and his hands break the plane of the line to stop the ball, a lecture/explanation and a DB certainly isn't going to hurt anyone and may feel more fair. I can live with that.
     
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  11. Yale

    Yale Member

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    Nov 26, 2012
    Well, not really. The IFK is awarded when a player “commits any other offence, not previously mentioned in Law 12, for which play is stopped to caution or send off a player”. If you're not stopping play to caution the player, you have no basis to restart with an IFK. There's no provision for restarting with an IFK because you stopped play to give someone a stern talking-to.
     
  12. R.U. Kiddingme

    R.U. Kiddingme Member

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    I may not be following what you are meaning to say here,
    but basically, if you award a FK for the misconduct, then you must show the YC.
    It is not the case that we can act on this infraction (by either stopping play or awarding a FK) and then decide if or not the action warrants a caution.
    Again, perhaps I misunderstood.
    Once more though, at this level no one will give it a second thought if you incorrectly start with a DB or a TI, as long as you make it clear that this action of stopping the ball should not be repeated.
     
  13. kayakhorn

    kayakhorn Member

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    @Yale and @R.U. Kiddingme, I don't think we are really disagreeing much here. You are stopping play for the cautionable offense of entering the field illegally. Then we stray into the issue of at what age you show plastic. In previous discussions some here have said that they would not show a card to a U10 player under any circumstance (either due to RoC or personal choice). I don't share that opinion for some offenses, but I am unlikely to start waving plastic over technical infractions like entering or leaving the field without permission at the U10 level. That said, if I stop play for a clearly cautionable offense I would like to restart in the appropriate way whether the card appears in my hand or not. Consider the explanation to the player as a verbal yellow card. If a referee feels that a card must be shown in this situation regardless of the age, then he/she should do so. That is what I meant by saying that the restart should be determined by the misconduct, not by the appearance of the card. But I also suggested that I am not going to lose much sleep over it if another referee chooses to restart a U10 game in this situation with a DB.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2014
  14. R.U. Kiddingme

    R.U. Kiddingme Member

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    Yes this thread is supposed to be about what you would do at a u-little game, which I'm sure we would all handle a bit differently in a higher level of play.

    In so doing we would all circumvent the first 17 laws in some fashion in favor of the 18th law in this particular case.
    It's all for the good of the game and not putting a bad taste in the mouths of the young players, or their parents, and I'm OK with that.

    Just as long as everyone knows that it is not something that one should do when the ball is rolling out.
     
  15. Chas (Psyatika)

    Chas (Psyatika) Member

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    Why are we making up a dropped ball restart that simply doesn't exist here?

    Either follow the book (IFK and caution) or use some common sense (pretend the touch never happened, tell the player to be careful, tell the coach to keep himself and his players off the line, and give the appropriate throw-in). In most cases, with youth players, the "common sense" option is the better choice.

    If you're already ignoring the correct protocol by failing to caution and give a free kick, why make things worse by making up your own restart? Everyone is expecting a throw-in here, so just give the throw in.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2014
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  16. Chas (Psyatika)

    Chas (Psyatika) Member

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    EDIT (can't edit because of the time limit): I want to clarify that I'm NOT picking on john rod for his decision. In the heat of the moment, in a situation that rarely comes up, your decision made sense and got the game going. I'm directing the above post more at the people sitting at their computers, with plenty of time to think things through, who are somehow still concluding that making up the restart is the best decision to make.
     
  17. Yale

    Yale Member

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    Nov 26, 2012
    Here's the problem: You don't give out cards at U10. Well, maybe you do, but I don't, and most refs don't. But the wholesale removal of one of your powers under the LOTG creates a problem, because certain restarts depend on your giving a caution. Consequently, you have to adapt.

    Now, in point of fact I agree with you—just give the throw-in, and ask the infractor to please refrain from interfering with the ball until it has gone completely into touch. But some refs might feel like they have to drive the point home, especially if that means that the team that would normally get the throw-in loses it, as they would if the caution and IFK were awarded. Thing is, if it hadn't been a substitute, but rather a coach or spectator, the appropriate restart would be a dropped ball, and you'd be the one violating the laws of the game if you just gave the throw-in. So I don't think it's so terribly unreasonable to treat the substitute as an outside agent, and restart with the dropped ball, since the IFK is basically off the table at this age group. Again, I personally wouldn't bother—a throw-in and a quick word should be more than enough—but accusing others of making up a restart out of whole cloth because they chose to go with the dropped ball is a bit excessive.
     
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  18. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

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    Get off your high horse. No one is making up a restart.

    Under the LOTG, a TI is impossible because the ball did not leave the field of play -- that is making up a restart. And by essentially ignoring the behavior, it doesn't have the teaching impact.

    Under the LOTG a caution cetainly can be given and an IFK is then awarded.

    If, however, play is stopped other than for a caution, e.g., because a talking to is going to occur instead of a caution, what do we have? We have a game stopped for another reason. Per Law 5, the proper restart for such a stoppage is a dropped ball.

    AYSO doesn't preclude a caution, it requests that cards not be shown. Consistent with AYSO philosophy, you could have this conversation with the U10 player. "#10, I need to explain something to you. In soccer, the ball isn't out until the whole ball goes over the whole line. So when you're not in the game you, have to be sure that you stay away from the ball until it goes all the way out. That make sense? OK, if you were older, I'd have to give you a yellow card, but now you know and won't do it when you're older, right?" ("Coach, that was a caution.") And from the caution an IFK flows.
     
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