Robert Cullen - Northern Ireland Eligible?

Discussion in 'Other Countries' started by nordirland, Sep 27, 2011.

  1. Matsu

    Matsu Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2001
    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

    Excuse me?
    I actually thought the US DID recognize dual nationality. At least thats what the US Depatment of Immigration and Naturalization says.

    http://www.us-immigration.com/information/dual_citizenship.html

    Why would you ask ME to explain why the US has had players switch, when you havent even taken the time to find out whether your own assumptions are accurate or inaccurate?

    At the end of the day it doesnt matter what any other country does or does not do. The bilateral agreements that Japan has with other countries preclude dual-nationality that includes Japan as one of the nationalities. Apart from a small number of countries that have troubled relations with Japan (such as North Korea) this is now a formal fact of international law. This is an issue that I know quite a bit about, and though this may a rare situation on BigSoccer, I actually take the time to check my facts, before posting comments about an important issue such as dual nationality.

    I outlined the situation in detail, in previous posts, which you seem to be uninterested in reading. Tell me... Why are you continuing to argue the point, if you cant be bothered to either read the previous posts, or even check the accuracy of your own statements?

    Japan has always been more cautious about allowing immigration than the US, and it also has a long history of problems with people taking Japanese nationality and then abandoning it (in one case, in order to run away from a murder rap), so they have tightened up their process in recent years. Japan now has bilateral agreements with most other countries which legally and permanently revoke any other citizenship at the time an adult (whether immigrant or child with uncertain nationality) formalizes their Japanese citizenship.

    - I identified the legislation that pertains to the issue
    - I confirmed with the UK embassy that it is, indeed, legally clear-cut.
    - I provided a phone number so that anyone else can do so as well.
    What else can I possibly do to prove that this is a black-and-white issue?

    The fact that not only G&WA, but now you, as well, are trying to engage me in an argument which has only one possible resolution, despite all the steps I have taken to try to offer both logical explanations and confirmable proof, suggests to me that "something is rotten in the state of Denmark". Why (I have to ask myself) are people at BigSoccer so incapable of just admitting that a fact is a fact, and that confirmed proof is confirmed proof?

    The only possibility that makes sense to me is that "someone" is deliberately trying to provoke me into an angry retort that will get me banned from BigSoccer. That way, they can then feel free to babble nonsense and make up untrue stories on BigSoccer message boards without having big bad Matsu come along and make them look bad, by providing the proof that they are wrong. I thought that the only person who was guilty of this (At least on this particular thread) was G&WA. But now it seems that you are taking up where he left off.

    Is there some other logical reason why you have now taken up the task of posting argumentative first-person comments that invite me - by name - to make some response, thus prolonging a discussion which should have been resolved conclusively back on page 2 of the thread?

    If so, I would like to hear it.

    If not, then a simple admission that you were mistaken, and you are sorry for wasting my time, would allow me to at least retain some semblance of respect for you as a "fair and unbiased moderator"


  2. GreenAndWhiteArmy

    GreenAndWhiteArmy New Member

    Joined:
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    Country:
    Northern Ireland
    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

    I appreciate that the Mods are concerned by the protracted, antagonistic and sporadic nature into which this thread has degenerated.
    Therefore from the myriad controversial claims you make, I shall pick just this one (above).

    Where in FIFA's articles does it make any reference to an age limit preventing Dual Nationals switching NT's?
    http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/generic/01/48/60/05/fifastatuten2011_e.pdf
    (See Article 8, page 62)

    There used to be a limit of 21, but following the successful Algerian FA motion at FIFA's 2009 Congress in Bahamas, FIFA amended its Articles to REMOVE any age limit, see eg:
    http://www.socawarriors.net/mens-senior-team/5585-tatff-targets-uk-born-zamora-samuel-again.html

    Since then, literally dozens of (over 21) Dual Nationals who had "missed the boat" on switching before their 21st birthday, have now taken the opportunity to do so, including NINE from France alone(!) who went on to play for Cameroon/Algeria/Ivory Coast in the 2010 World Cup Finals in SA, eg:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/world_cup_2010/8677404.stm
    http://georgefominyen.wordpress.com...some-french-born-african-players-drop-france/
  3. Matsu

    Matsu Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2001
    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

    You pick a comment I made about players playing for teams ABOVE THE U-20 LEVEL, who subsequently want to change affiliation, and then you change the subject completely to discuss players who played for teams at U-20 or below, who changed their national affiliation after they turned 20? Dont you even see how transparent that bait-and-switch move is? Do you understand the meaning of "logic"?

    Never mind. Those were rhetorical questions I am well aware you arent doing this because you think you are right, but only because you want to provoke a response. And no doubt youll keep at it, ad infinitum.

    Its a pity though. Youve posted 12 times on this thread, and yet you have never even bothered to VISIT any other threads on BigSoccer (or if you did, you used your other identity. . . . you know . . . the one that you supposedly dont have)
    That is really sad. You see, football is a very beautiful sport, and there is so much to learn by reading what people have to say about it. By limiting your participation on this board solely to this one thread - which isnt even about football - youve deprived yourself of a potentially rewarding experience. Youve also marked yourself clearly as someone who has an agenda to pursue, rather than an interest in football.

    Your loss.
  4. Beppe33

    Beppe33 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2011
    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

    I really do hope that Cullen himself decides to play for one of the home nations, would be interesting to see how it pans out, even if, as Matsu says it seems very unlikely that he will be eligible to play for any country other than Japan.

    Anyway, i was quite interested when i heard about him moving over to Europe to play.

    It seems that he started out quite brightly with Jubilo Iwata, but is he really as bad a player as many people here make him out to be? Has anybody here seen him play?


  5. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 1999
    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

    Matsu - I have made no bones about the fact that I haven't read every post you've made or that I am no expert in this area. And clearly I was confused about how dual citizenship works in this country, but your link is not a US site, nor am I sure it's accurate. US law does not, I believe, recognize dual citizenship, but it also does not require dual citizens to renounce their citizenship of their birth country.

    Where you are confused is that I'm all that interested in proving you wrong. I'm asking the questions for the sole purpose of trying to encourage you to approach a question which I feel is unknowable (that is, how Fifa would rule if appealed by the player) with less hyperbole. I'm capable of being wrong, and so are you - as we've both demonstrated in this thread.

    The rest of your post is exactly the over the top drama I was referring to elsewhere.

    At the end of the day - is this guy even going to be called up to the Japanese first team? If not, why do you care?

    Given that this clearly isn't a Japanese Abroad topic - I suggest that if y'all continue to go back and forth, that we will move the whole kit and kaboodle to the Other Countries forum in Europe where Northern Ireland is discussed.
  6. GreenAndWhiteArmy

    GreenAndWhiteArmy New Member

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    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

    Please do not misrepresent me.

    What I am saying is that any (properly FIFA eligible) Dual National, who hasn't already played a competitive Senior "A" international for Country A, may since 2009 switch to represent Country B.
    I have already cited, and you are ignoring, the specific FIFA Regulation (#8, page 62) which clearly proves that it doesn't matter what age a player is, or whether he has already represented Country A in an under-age game of any sort (or even in a senior "A" International friendly):
    http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/generic/01/48/60/05/fifastatuten2011_e.pdf

    To illustrate, here are two examples with which I am very familiar:
    1. English-born Adam Barton (20) gained his first international recognition of any sort in a senior Northern Ireland "A" International friendly vs Morocco in Nov.2010, when he was 19. This year he switched to the Republic of Ireland and has since represented their U-21's a number of times, including in the UEFA U-21 Championship Qualifiers;
    2. English-born Lee Camp (27) represented England up to U-21 level between 2004 and 2007. When he realised he was never likely to play for their senior "A" team, and FIFA dropped the limit on switching after 21 (in 2009), he opted to switch to NI earlier this year. He has since played 8 times for NI's senior "A" international team, both friendly and competitive.

    Both examples* prove that so long as Cullen is a bona fide Dual International as recognised by FIFA's Statutes, then the fact that he has already represented Japan at any age and at any level below competitive senior "A" International, does not of itself disbar him from switching.

    * - I can provide more, if you like, such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Prince_Boateng
  7. GreenAndWhiteArmy

    GreenAndWhiteArmy New Member

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    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

    I don't mind where we discuss this, so long as we are allowed to discuss it fully and freely (oh, and some common courtesy would be nice, too ;)).

    If you should move it, I would be more than happy for Matsu (and any other interested poster) to follow.
  8. earp2000

    earp2000 Member

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    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

    The way the US and Japan "don't recognize" dual nationality is completely different. (FWIW, I'm a US/Irish dual citizen who grew up in Japan.) The US doesn't recognize dual citizenship -- as far as they are concerned, I'm American and only American. But at the same time they don't care whether I hold a second citizenship; they just ignore it and treat me as though I only have American citizenship. Japan, on the other hand, actively prevents Japanese nationals from holding two citizenships. You have to pick one when you turn 20. For anyone over the age of 20 it is impossible to (legally) have dual citizenship... though some people do keep both, neglect to make the (legally required) choice, and hope no one notices. If the Japanese authorities find out, they can (and will) demand that you renounce one of the two citizenships on the spot. However, it is likely safe to assume that this oversight would not have been made in the case of a football player representing Japan internationally.

    As for the thread overall, I don't see why this it is so complicated. Bobby Cullen is currently a Japanese citizen and ineligible to play for Northern Ireland. He is eligible to apply for British (or Irish, for that matter) citizenship by descent, at which point he would lose his Japanese. If he does, by the letter of the law, he would still be ineligible to play for Northern Ireland as he is not a dual national by Japanese, British, or FIFA rules (and was not, when he last played for the Japan U-23 team). Whether FIFA would live up to the letter of the law is unknowable. All of which is a moot point, because he's not switching anyway.
  9. earp2000

    earp2000 Member

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    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

    And, while I'm here making my one post for the year... Cullen's career with Jubilo was derailed by injury. After recovering, he was not really the same and unable to regain his spot. He was released by Jubilo and moved to Kumamoto in J2, where he was adequate but not great. Shortly after, he accepted a trial and eventually a transfer to Venlo, where he's been, surprisingly, a regular starter. Or, perhaps, not that surprisingly, since Venlo's level is probably at or below that of a mid-table J2 team.
  10. Matsu

    Matsu Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2001
    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

    You ask me not to misrepresent you and then proceed to list two examples which are exactly the sort of examples that I described when "misrepresenting" you? Good greif man, how hard is this for you to understand?

    None of your examples involving a player from one of the home nations is going to apply to the situation that *I* am referring to when it applies to Cullen. It isnt possible for that to be the case (though for players who will be 21, 22 or 23 in 2012, it will BECOME possible). Despite the fact that I have provided hints galore, I bet you still dont even realise why it is impossible.

    The reason why you have difficulty wrapping your mind around the issue is that England, Wales, Scotland and N.Ireland have never, in history, taken part in a top-level FIFA competition (ie not just "friendly") that is at the U-23 level. Because the UK participates in the Olympics as the UK, not as England, Scotland, NIreland and Wales

    But as earp2000 noted, that is neither here nor there. None of it matters in the context of this discussion. It is all a very simple issue, which you are trying to make complicated in order to perpetuate the argument. Enough. If you cant see how transparent your claims are, by now, you never will.

    Go find another sock. Im done replying to this one.
  11. nipponbasse83

    nipponbasse83 Member

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    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

    Indonesia as well doesn't recognize dual citizenships, but A.League striker Sergio Van Dijk (of Dutch descent but with Indonesian parents or something - not really sure) are currently bein naturalized in order to play for Indonesia, and therefore have given up on his Dutch citizenship. Of course, that situation is different from this one with Cullen, as Van Dijk is making the switch TO a country that doesnt recognize dual citizenship, while Cullen is switching away from one, but it might still be relevant somehow? If not, maybe there are some other cases involving Indonesian players that could be more relevant? Perhaps someone with better inside knowledge of Indonesian football could tell us more about it.
  12. Matsu

    Matsu Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2001
    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

    Sergio Van Dijk has never played international football at ANY age level, for ANY country (not even Indonesia).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergio_van_Dijk

    How would his case be relevant in any way to this discussion?
  13. nipponbasse83

    nipponbasse83 Member

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    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

    The law that doesnt recognize dual citizenship ( as far as I know not too many countries has that law?), a player switching nationalities, that player having had trouble with both FIFA and the FA's...etc I dont know. I never said it was relevant, I asked if it might be. But anyway its a case that's atleast in the same category ( player switching nationality to or from a country with the no dual-citizenship law..) so I found it interesting. But what I was wondering about was whether or not there have been any Indonesian players ( or players from any other country that has the no dual citizenship law) making the switch to another country to which we could compare Cullen's case with. I've seen a couple of Indonesia-based people on this forum, so maybe they know, or maybe someone with more time on their hands than me could investigate it further.
  14. GreenAndWhiteArmy

    GreenAndWhiteArmy New Member

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    Northern Ireland
    Re: 2011/12 Robert Cullen @ VVV-Venlo (NED) Thread [R]

    Your reliance on Cullen's having played for Japan U-23's in the Olympics as a reason for disqualifying him from being eligible to play for NI is QUITE SIMPLY WRONG, for this reason.

    FIFA Article 8 "Change of Association" states [my emphasis]:

    1. If a Player has more than one nationality... he may, only once, request to change the Association for which he is eligible to play international matches to the Association of another country of which he holds nationality, subject to the following conditions:
    (a ) He has not played a match (either in full or in part) in an official competition at "A" international level for his current Association, and at the time of his first full or partial appearance in an international match in an official competition for his current Association, he already had the nationality of the representative team for which he wishes to play.

    Note the use of the term "first" (appearance in a competitive match). This means the cut-off point at which Cullen must prove he had British nationality is NOT when he played at U-23 level in the Olympics, rather it is the FIRST competitive match he played for Japan as an under-age player - most likely at 17 or 18, maybe 19 (and almost certainly before he reached his majority at 20, which would have been the first time he might - emphasise "might" - have considered registering his renunciation of his British Nationality with the British Secretary of State).

    These are FIFA's Rules on the matter, they are the basis for my case and much as you would evidently like to, you simply cannot keep ignoring them, and what they (specifically and unequivocally) dictate.

    LATE EDIT: Brussels-born Goalkeeper Yves Ma-Kalambay (DOB 31/01/86) played for Belgium U-23's in the 2008 Olympic Mens Football Finals in Beijing, when aged 22:
    http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/statisticsandrecords/players/player=290815/index.html
    He then switched Associations to that of his parents, Democratic Republic of Congo, making his Senior "A" International debut for them in 2010:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yves_Ma-Kalambay
  15. nordirland

    nordirland New Member

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    To bring this thread into context. I take an active role in acquiring up to date information on all 'eligible' footballers for Northern Ireland. Please see here for details https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...Iz&authkey=CLqega0H&hl=en_US&authkey=CLqega0H


    Although I have been aware that Robert Cullen had a Northern Irish father I never thought much of it until quite recently. The reason for this being Northern Ireland were in a period of successfulness beating England, Spain etc. etc. In the past year or so Northern Ireland has continued to slide down the FIFA Rankings under the helm of Nigel Worthington. The decline has been so great that Nigel resigned from his role only this week. One of the major excuses Nigel used for poor results was the lack of a sizable player pool. This has been further dilapidated because the Football Association of Ireland are actively taking Irish Football Association players whether they have a blood link to Eire or not.

    Although this is true, I knew from my research that Northern Ireland has a larger player pool than those in charge believe. I was therefore collating a database of players for the Irish Football Association's persual. I was 'googling' Robert Cullen and I came across this forum and subsequent thread on Robert Cullen http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?p=24511868 There followed the debate on Robert's eligibility.

    I could confuse things even more by saying that 'in theory' (yes I have read the debate but 'in theory') Robert is also eligible to an Irish Passport because of sections 6 and 7 of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 1956 http://t.co/d0UEQcP0 & http://t.co/kdMIR0iN (not the Good Friday Agreement which local media here still assume is the reason http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_Agreement). Anyway thats another debate all together!

    So to reaffirm the situation both 'GreenAndWhiteArmy' are not "trolls" (and being a moderator on a Northern Ireland Fans Messageboard I know what that term defines) we are fans of Northern Ireland trying to ascertain whether or not Robert Cullen 1) is eligible for Northern Ireland and 2) if he would be interested in representing Northern Ireland. I have also posted in this thread on England U-16 http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=795884

    Seeing as the debate has focused on number 1 I took it upon myself to investigate part 2. I recently made contact with a representative of VVV Venlo and asked him " Do you think Robert 'Bobby' Cullen would be interested in playing for Northern Ireland seeing as his dad is from the country?" The response I received was "I did speak with Bobby and he would be interested if he had some more information.
    You can sent it to me at: ........"

    This is were we are at right now and I will of course provide updates if and when I get them. The issue now is that Northern Ireland currently do not have a manager or coaches until the New Year, so this may run a while.
  16. GreenAndWhiteArmy

    GreenAndWhiteArmy New Member

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    In an online webchat earlier this week, newly-appointed Northern Ireland manager Michael O'Neill was asked whether he was was aware of Robert Cullen.

    He replied: "Yes, and an approach to his club has been made for further information. I intend to watch this player personally or have someone watch him in the near future."
  17. Jiffy Boogle

    Jiffy Boogle New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2012
    I have read through this entire debate and it is really interesting!

    I can understand Matsu getting angry, considering we watch Ireland take our players and realistically have no right to!

    However I had to register, as I want to know what Matsu thinks about the fact Northern Ireland have approached Cullen to play for them? Surely he must be eligible then.
  18. nordirland

    nordirland New Member

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    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    NI boss Michael O'Neill sounds out Dutch-based Robert Cullen


    Michael O'Neill is exploring whether Dutch-based Japanese player Robert Cullen might be prepared to make himself available to Northern Ireland.
    Cullen, 26, has represented the Japan Under-20 team and plays his club football for Dutch outfit VVV-Venlo.
    His father is Northern Irish and O'Neill has made inquiries to gauge the player's interest.
    "An approach to his [Cullen's] club has been made for further information," said the Northern Ireland manager.
    "I intend to watch this player personally or have someone watch him in the near future.
    "In the short time I have been in the job, I have actively tried to deepen the player pool available for selection by trying to find players who are eligible for NI.
    "This will continue throughout my reign as it will allow our younger players time to develop and not be rushed into full international football."
    Cullen represented Japan at the 2005 Under-20 World Championship and played for Japanese clubs Jubilo Iwata and Roasso Kumamoto before signing for the Dutch team last year.
    He has scored three goals in 31 appearances since moving to the Dutch club.
    Use accessible player and disable flyout menus[​IMG]
    Cannot play media.


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17111237


    New North

    O'Neill made the comments about Cullen while answering questions on a webchat hosted by the Belfast-based News Letter newspaper.









  19. GreenAndWhiteArmy

    GreenAndWhiteArmy New Member

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    Everything seems to make Matsu angry! ;)

    Anyhow, since Cullen's father is from N.Ireland, then in principle at least, NI have every "right" to Cullen.

    Similarly, if a player was born and brought up in NI, but to a Japanese father, then FIFA would be equally happy that he should represent Japan.

    Of course, I say "FIFA", since the Japanese Government might have objections towards giving such a person the necessary Japanese Nationality.

    However when it comes to the reverse, as in Cullen's case, there is no good reason why the UK Government shouldn't grant him a Passport, should he require it.

    Matsu has gone strangely quiet on this issue since my post #64, where I quoted the example of Yves Ma-Kalambay as proof that Cullen having represented Japan in their Olympic U-23 does NOT disqualify him from subsequently switching to another country.

    Doesn't necessarily follow, JB, especially since the Irish Football Association is only requesting further information at this stage.

    My own view is that he certainly should be eligible to switch, but likely won't want to, since that would mean renouncing his Japanese citizenship - rather too high a price to pay for the sake of a few caps with a National Team which is unlikely to qualify for a major tournament during the rest of his own playing career.
  20. nordirland

    nordirland New Member

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    A British passport will however, enable h
  21. nordirland

    nordirland New Member

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    A British passport will however, enable him to find a British club to further career. Work Permit will not be an issure therefore he may like the idea?
  22. nordirland

    nordirland New Member

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    http://www.voetbalcentraal.nl/nieuws/89177/transfervrije-cullen-vertrekt-na-dit-seizoen-bij-vvvvenlo

    Robert Cullen leaves at the end of this season VVV-Venlo. The Japanese attacker then has a free transfer status. He has the Limburg club already said not to start drawing.

    "He has put his sights on an English club, with a free transfer status is that chance may be somewhat larger," agrees Hans Soentjens, director of VVV-Venlo, in conversation with Voetbal International.

    Really wake of the decision of Cullen Soentjes can not lie. "In total, it is not quite become what we had expected," explains the director. "Hence it seems better to us to look after this season."
    If there is a club in January come for Cullen, then a departure in the winter also negotiable.
    sc-f repped this.
  23. Clad

    Clad Member

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    lol, he is not premier league quality at all.

    am actually suprised he gets plays time atVVV
  24. Saku²

    Saku² Member+

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    Aug 22, 2009
    Like you know something about Robert Cullen.
  25. sc-f

    sc-f Member+

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    Club:
    SC Freiburg
    Country:
    Japan
    Like the Premier League is mentioned in the source.
    Dax and AKITOD repped this.

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