Ronaldo or Romario? Opinions from non-Brazilians

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by astinus4, May 23, 2010.

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Romario or Ronaldo? Who was better (for non Brazilians)

  1. Romario

    32.8%
  2. Ronaldo

    67.2%
  1. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member

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    There was still Stoichkov but in the end Romario still scored nearly twice as much which surely isn't the regular in team with this quality. And Koeman obviously was their PK taker, Romario could have padded 6 further goals.

    From 6:50 sure he had his share of tap-ins, but which striker doesn't?

    I already said this quite a few times. It's always impressive to people when someone carries a mediocre team, but I think standing out (or holding their own) on a stacked squad deserves equal praise and Romario proved that he's able to do this. Something a few highly rated players from the 90s did not.
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2013
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  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Yes, but Stoichkov was still player of the season (as a forward!). So that's a thing that shows how not everything was focused on letting Romario shine with the others (only) playing the second fiddle (without opportunity to steal the limelight as well).

    I can see your point though.

    Depends on the situation.
    http://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/messi-vs-football-records.1983902/page-10#post-27566843

    The striker position (if primarily aimed towards scoring goals) is surely among the positions that benefits the most of playing with a great support cast, and therefore standing out.

    For a left-sided midfielder like Zidane at Galacticos it can turn out in such a way that he's suppressed to the fringes of a team and only plays a secondary role in terms of creativity (with, for example, Raul upgraded to the main creative guy).

    Unfortunately we've often seen that those decisions at 'super teams' are not always related to footballing qualities. In terms of acquisition policy (Beckham...), playing tactics and that kind of things. Often it doesn't really benefit the team though the damage for the 'victims' has already been done.

    Unfortunately, that someone receives the opportunity to stand out above his team-mates in a super-team (an opportunity that has to be granted and taken), is a decision influenced by many things.

    Said this before but Georghe Hagi was eliminated at Real Madrid after a season where he actually played well and visibly improved over his first season. Some cynics said that his nationality worked against him.


    In case of Romario the situation speaks for him. He did not arrive as a world record transfer beater, a marketing icon or whatever else that might hint at special perks. He arrived as someone who had to fight for his chance and his fans are right that the initial plan was to bench Romario for some games, as well as the other foreigners. A rotation policy for reducing the strain.
    But eventually Romario did not disappoint (at the short run, and on the field; the downside is that he had for some a role in the demise of the Dream Team) and he almost played all important games.

    Lastly, I do think that Romario was followed in Europe when he played for PSV. Example:
    http://www.rsssf.com/rssbest/rsspoy92.html

    Which 90s players are you thinking about?
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2013
  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    I agree that they complement each other.

    Stats aren't 100% flawless either.

    For example, according to OPTA Messi had yesterday zero turnovers and zero dispossessions.
    http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/738467/LiveStatistics/Spain-La-Liga-2013-2014-Barcelona-Levante

    But this between 0:30 and 0:50 seems like one?



    The stats still help though. I can for example see/verify that Isco received 10 fouls yesterday. An incredibly high number (for these days).
  4. gilmour86

    gilmour86 Member

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    This is the so called Brazil fan here? You are not seems to me a Brazil fan, you seems a Ronaldo fan, always trying to explain why Ronaldo is superior to Romario and always trying to put Ronaldo alongside Pele and Maradona.
    Every Brazil fan knows that Romario is the guy who make the NT the biggest after 24 years. Imagine what would happened with Ronaldo if Romario and co wouldn’t have won the WC94? Ronaldo had a convulsion by excessive stress before WC98 final. If he would have to deal with the pressure of 28 years without a WC, I guess it could have been even worse for him.
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  5. gilmour86

    gilmour86 Member

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    Romario is regarded as a better player by brazilians, PSV supporters and Barça supporters. He has a place on Barça XI of all times, Brazil NT XI of all times and is regarded as best PSV player ever. It was the people who watched him and Ronaldo closely. Most people here on the net watched Ronaldo through 15 years and Romario in 94, watched youtube videos and had a conclusion: Ronaldo was better.
    http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/treina...a-selecao-brasileira-de-todos-os-tempos.shtml
    http://mundoestranho.abril.com.br/materia/qual-seria-a-selecao-brasileira-de-todos-os-tempos
    http://oglobo.globo.com/blogs/plane.../romario-ainda-um-rei-em-eindhoven-322507.asp
    http://www.4dfoot.com/2011/11/21/all-time-fc-barcelona-team/
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  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    By who exactly?

    A poll among journalists revealed Van der Kuijlen as greatest PSV player at the turn on the millennium. Although there is a difference between 'best' and 'greatest'.

    A poll in December 1999 among clubcard holders (and readers of the PSV supporters-magazine) had this as outcome (chosen out of 75 names):

    15. Ruud van Nistelrooy
    14. Sören Lerby
    13. Phillip Cocu
    12. Ruud Gullit
    11. Jan Heintze
    10. Ronaldo
    9. Luc Nilis
    8. Hans van Breukelen
    7. Jan van Beveren
    6. Jaap Stam
    5. Romario
    4. Willy van der Kuylen
    3. Willy van de Kerkhof
    2. Ronald Koeman
    1. Erik Gerets

    (in this case I believe that the majority of voters were indeed PSV fans who visited regularly a game in the stadium)

    Recently, with the 100 years anniversary of the club as reason, the local newspaper 'Eindhovens Dagblad' held another poll, although it was also possible to vote on the internet. And yes, in that one Romario received an inclusion (by the younger public).
    This was chosen out of 60 names.
    [​IMG]

    Notable omissions were: Koeman, Gullit, Ronaldo and Van der Kuijlen.


    It is not up to me to say who is right or who is wrong in their selections but that Romario is universally and almost unanimously seen as the best/greatest ever is big and enormous bullshit. That is simply not true, no matter how often that is said here in this thread.
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2013
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  7. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    Interesting points I think:

    Gullit isn't near the top of the ranking, or in the XI, despite becoming arguably/reportedly the best player in Europe (and perhaps the world depending on the form of Maradona) while playing for PSV. I think he was also quite low down in the Feyenoord list of great players you sent once by PM. Although as you say, greatest and best are different things and he didn't stay and become a PSV legend as such but moved to AC Milan. And despite less attention, perhaps Marco van Basten was already the better player in some respects when both were still in the Netherlands (some things you've said and shown before could lend credibility to that view I think) which would cast doubt on whether Gullit was the best player in Europe....perhaps both players (moreso Van Basten?) were a bit late to be recognised widely by Europeans oustide the Netherlands although perhaps both were also developing their games and experience during the mid-80's still.

    Rene van der Kerkhof isn't present, but brother Willy is up there with Van der Kuijlen near the top of the ranking (although only Van Beveren from the 70's generation gets enough votes for the 100 years XI).
  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Hmm, this is the Romario thread but want to say that Gullit would have a better chance at a poll among journalists. I think I saw him included actually but for now I could only verify that Van der Kuijlen was selected by journalists as PSV their greatest player. Will look whether I can find that back but I'm pretty sure he would fare better in a poll among journalists.
    From a 'rural' PSV fan point of view Gullit has a few things going against him which might influence the public vote but that's for another thread.



    He is occasionally also included in Feyenoord all-time XIs but I'm afraid that also here something like the Amsterdam-factor works against him
    http://www.feyenoordgeschiedenis.net/beste-elf-aller-tijden.htm

    Similarly, Romario does probably better in a internet poll among a fairly young public as in other set-ups (I think - maybe I'm wrong).

    EDIT: also see George Best his comment now on Gullit his Wikipedia page (with source)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruud_Gullit
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2013
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  9. greatstriker11

    greatstriker11 Member+

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    Very accurate!

    Back then there was regulations limiting foreign players to not more then 3 players on the pitch at once. Laudrup vs Stoichkov vs Romario vs Koeman had to compete for play time and win their position and not being benched by Cruyff. After Romario had scored 14 goals in 8 games in pre-season Cruyff made him the main striker for La Liga matches while Stoichkov took most Champions league matches. Laudrup and Koeman were substitutes and played less games. There was no "all balls on" Romario or any other player for that matter. Cruyff never played the individual game like Robson did with Ronaldo.

    On PSV: I think it's biased and unfair to rule out Romario's PSV achievements there. For one, the Dutch league was top back then. Don't forget PSV was European chamions back in 1988. They were the team to beat. Which brings me to the next;

    Since this OP is about Romario vs Ronaldo(who was better)

    For me it's simple. Romario won more league titles and top scoring titles. Romario's gpg with NT is better and his WC94 was a more convincing one. He also won Champions league Top scoring titles twice! All these are things that lacked in Ronaldo. For as much sensational and great a striker Ronaldo might be with the ball at his legs, he did not win anything significant with domestic Clubs, other then hype and publicity. In my opinion it's NT/WC that Ronaldo kind of redeemed himself for not having conquered Club football. Was it not for NT and WC, Ronaldo's career would have ended very barren. Thence, it's my conclusion that Romario was more of a winner while Ronaldo was more of a sensation.

    Let me ask you guys in this way, have you seen Ronaldo destroy Real Madrid, Atletico Madrid in "El Clasico" with hat tricks the way Romario did back in 1993/94/95????

    For me this is a factor that sets them apart.
  10. greatstriker11

    greatstriker11 Member+

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    I am Dutch/Spanish and have lived in Holland throughout my entire youth and still visit twice a year there. My whole family lives in Holland. I can assure you that not only PSV fans (like me) but the entire Dutch nation regards Romario better then Ronaldo. And this is not because of longevity. It's because we have seen both played for the same Club in the same position.
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  11. greatstriker11

    greatstriker11 Member+

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    I don't remember seeing anywhere a claim that Romario is seen as the best/greatest ever in this thread. Anywhere!

    What I have quoted was a translation of PSV own directors and coaches words stating that on the whole Romario was the best player ever they have signed to play at the club. This was from a documentary on PSV on the Dutch TV nos.nl. It's not my words but that of PSV own managers. So if PSV own managers claim that, I think we should be taking it seriously.

    On the contrary, it's the Ronaldo fans like JamesBH11 who claimed that Ronaldo was the best striker and only second to Pele, Maradona. They claimed that Ronaldo was the only "Heir to Pele" which I refuted many times.
  12. gilmour86

    gilmour86 Member

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    Well, you posted a lot of sources showing that Romario is higher rated in PSV than Ronaldo, thanks for that.
    I posted a link, showing that Romario is the only player who has 2 spaces dedicated to him in Philips stadium. This is also a prove of his greatness in Eindhoven.
    The same happens in Barça and both had their best season there. Take a look on the links I posted. According to Nike and internet fans, Ronaldo was beyond the human comprehension in 96/97, he was a God on the pich. But according Cataluna publications and Barça supporters, it was Romario who is the best striker ever in Barça history.
  13. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member

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    ...is there a single person in the world who would have said otherwise?
  14. greatstriker11

    greatstriker11 Member+

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    Wow! Look what I've spotted here. I smell hypocrisy again. How dare you criticise people using the word "Everyone" since you're the first and only person who seemed to have used the word "Everyone" in every post of yours so far.

    I was right in saying that you seem to be using two different measuring sticks. One for Ronaldo and one for Romario.

    Wasn;t it you who said "Everyone" regards Ronaldo this and that?

    Wasn't it you who said "99% of the world" think this and that?

    By the way I'm still waiting on your proof on "99% of the whole world" agrees with your views.

    And don't throw me that PLACAR, ESPN bullshit since "99% of the world" don't even know what PLACAR magazine is!
  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Yes, I posted some things about that documentary on this page
    http://www.bigsoccer.com/community/...-opinions-from-non-brazilians.1437506/page-20

    It also helps that Romario still 'cared' about PSV after his playing days. Example:
    http://nos.nl/video/228102-2002-romario-blinkt-uit-in-galaduel.html

    Ronaldo couldn't give a damn shit.

    But I don't think it is easy to compare a 17 years old boy with someone who arrived when he was 22,5 years old.
  16. greatstriker11

    greatstriker11 Member+

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    When I was 17 I did care a hell a lot more about what was ethical/right or not.

    Ronaldo never really cared about any clubs he passed through. Be that 17 or 30. Pele and his so called "Heir" do have much in common, they will do anything as long as the price is right. The only allegiance Pele has is to the hands who feeds him, he was the face of Viagra, Masterclub, CBF and FIFA etc. The same with Ronaldo, he's the face of Nike and CBF. They will go as far as condemning the poor Brazilian people who took it to the streets to protest against corruption and social unjust. The same people who supported their football careers. That's why I don't like Pele nor Ronaldo. These guys have danced with the devil, instead of using their public image and influence for the better of the Brazilian people, like Socrates, Romario and Maradona have done by risking their own lives to openly criticise their governments and football authorities.
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  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Who of the high rated 90s players did not do as well at stacked teams?
  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    It helps that he held a high enough profile among young(er) PSV fans because of his outspoken dislike against everything related to Ajax, despite being born and raised in Amsterdam.

    Not a long time ago a widely praised documentary was made of him, which was very good I have to say. Helps a great deal too.

    This is also a difference with Van der Kuijlen (of him photos exist where he celebrates carnival with the 70s Ajax players like Krol, Cruijff etc.), and the latter one has often denied that he has personal issues with the Ajax clan of that time. Van Beveren developed a personal dislike around 1970-1971.

    For Romario it helps (in comparison with Ronaldo) that he expressed more warmth and empathy while Ronaldo appeared a bit cold (they said) and never returned after his transfer, unlike Romario.
    The demeanour off the field was more appreciated by fans I think, in the sense of attention for the club and fans.
    It is known that Romario sometimes appeared in the clubhouse and fanhouse, without notice.
  19. greatstriker11

    greatstriker11 Member+

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    Having spend my youth in Holland in the time Romario lived in Holland I can confirm that you are right. He did show up in fan clubs without notice.

    With that said, who would you support as a fan? A player who shows appreciation for his supporters or the one who seemed indifferent?
  20. greatstriker11

    greatstriker11 Member+

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    Attention here.

    I think it's interesting to have such a long debate about these two strikers, but in my opinion this is plain simple. We don't have to use such a long lists of STATS nor arguments to make a case.

    Since these two (Ro-Ro) are both centre forwards and played more or less for the same clubs (PSV,Barca) and had the same years of career (+-18 years) among others, it seems to me that the best thing is just to ask.

    Who did win more titles and dominated football more in those 16-18 years?

    In my opinion and without much cherry picking data and crunching and squeezing numbers like many have been doing here to make their case in their favour. Instead of ESPN, PLACAR or whatever amateur voting poll there may be on the internet, I have used stats from rsssf.com and wikipedia, so that every soul on Earth can verify and challenge it.

    (Team titles only. leaving out individual titles since Ballon D'Or and world player of year etc are European biased!, and no second tier club championship included like Carioca, paolista or Spanish (super)cups etc, thus counting only the most important titles with TEAMS):

    Team club championships
    Romario: Brasileirao Serie-A 2000/ Eredivisie 89,91,92/La Liga 94/FIFA Club WC final 2000
    Ronaldo: La Liga 2003

    Team club top-scoring charts
    Romario: Brazilierao Serie-A 2000,2001,2005/ Eredivisie 89,90,91/La Liga 94/FIFA Club WC 2000/Champions league 90,93
    Ronaldo: Eredivisie 95, La Liga 96,03

    National Team
    Romario: Olympic Silver + Top scorer/Copa America 98,97/WC94+MVP+silver boot/Confederation Cup97 +top scorer
    Ronaldo: Olympic Bronze/Copa America 97,99 +MVP+top scorer/WC final98, WC02+MVP+golden boot/Confederation Cup97+Bronze shoe

    National Team goals
    Romario: 55 goals in 70 games (of which 17 goals in 25 games friendlies)
    R0naldo: 62 goals in 98 games (of which 21 goals in 39 games friendlies)

    Besides the above it is well established that Romario scored almost three times as much official goals in his career then Ronaldo. In fact Romario scored more official goals then even Pele making him the second best goal scoring in official matches in history.

    In this category Romario won more league championships and top scoring titles then Ronaldo by a large margin. Some like JamesBH11 (in previous posts) argued that's because Ronaldo played for SUB PART clubs in his entire career. I thought this was utter nonsense!
    Further, the notion that Ronaldo's stats are better is also flawed, perhaps stats on gpg with final games etc. But not STATS on the most important football titles like the ones I've posted here above.

    Now the stats above are dry and factual and unbiased. It's there on rsssf.com and wikipedia for everyone to see. There has been no manipulation on my behalf to make Romario look better. What you see is what you get. With this said and done we can move to the next, which is observation(what we have seen with our eyes)

    on an observational level, besides having better stats, I believe that Romario had more technique and skills in his repertoire then Ronaldo as well.

    Romario was better in: passes, first touch, one touch game, positioning, vision, collective game, one-to game, toe poaching, HEADERS, freekicks, Air control, changing pace. He didn't need space and could score inside and outside the box. he was known as a collective game player. He could easily play as a playmaker.
    Ronaldo was better in fast/high speed dribbling, shooting outside the box, nutmegs. But he avoided HEADERS and Air game as much as he could. This is, in my opinion, the reason he had so much less goals by headers then any other striker I know. He was known as a power game player and was the more individualist of the two.

    Now, with all this said and done, I haven't even said that Romario was the best. All I have done here is to present what I believe to be the most relevant data and observation as generic as possible.

    be the jury and verdict yourselves. But do so independently without resorting to what the media or the "99% of the rest of the world" thinks.
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  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    That's what I tried to say: polls among PSV fans will appreciate this.

    It is always risky to say such things but Maradona was ambassador for UNICEF around 1984-1985 until those felt embarrassed and felt the collateral damage for his behaviour. The ambassadorship did not last long.

    Is being on the payroll of Mastercard worse as getting cheques from the Camorra?

    Pelé never vouched for right-wing idiots (advocating land expropriation; expelling poor people from their land) or - a decade later - Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro and the rest of the chums.

    Sorry but sometimes I don't understand your categorizations of players along the lines you draw here o_O
  22. greatstriker11

    greatstriker11 Member+

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    Puck, it's known by Brazilians that Pele always defended CBF and FIFA's and bashed on the Brazilian people. With the recent Brazilian people's uprising he was known to criticize the people and defend FIFA. In the past he supported the corrupt CBF Ricardo Teixeira like no other inspite of all the allegations of corruption by this person. He is known in Brazil for making dumb and ignorant comments openly and publicly about football players and managers, and seem to have gotten it always wrong. He is known for making utter nonsense prediction about who will win WC, always failed to make a correct prediction. Socrates used his image to protest against the dictatorship in Brazil. Romario used his image to enter Politics and criticise corruption in Brazilian football, which is responsible for destroying Brazil great domestic potential to dominate world club leagues. Maradona, may have had his clown moments with Italian maffia and allegiance with Fidel Castro , but for the rest of his career he protested against unjust in football.
  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    You will not hear me about Socrates but if you can make a narrative about Pelé you can also make one for Maradona.

    After all, socializing with mafia doesn't help for tackling corruption.

    Saying to journalists that they should do this and this or... [fill in] doesn't help either.

    And I fail to see what Maradona actually did for helping the poor. Pelé had/has at least his charity foundations.

    Surely interchangeably supporting right-wing and left-wing scum will not help the poor. How does one help them by praising Fidel Castro? How do they benefit if a guy who wants to redistribute land (means: taking it away) is supported?

    What did he do?

    What has Romario accomplished so far?
  24. gilmour86

    gilmour86 Member

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    So, we saw today that Ronaldo didn´t make the all time PSV team. He also had no place in all time Barça. And also no place in Real Madrid XI of all times (C. Ronaldo, Sanchez, Raul, Gento, Puskas, all did more than him for the club). For the NT, I already posted that almost every Brazil XI of all times had Romario as striker, not him. But I bet the fans who watched his videos in Youtube think that he deserves place in all time team of every team that he played. This is a overrating situation or not?
  25. greatstriker11

    greatstriker11 Member+

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    Wait and slow down.

    Maradona didn't do for the poor. I agree, but he criticise football association policies in Argentina. Which is something Pele never did. Pele never criticised corruption in football.

    And I didn't endorse Maradona's connection with Fidel Castro either. I said he had links with Fidel but not that I liked that.

    In the end what I wanted to highlight is the fact that some footballers took the advantage and privilege of their high profiles to criticise either football policies or local governments. Maradona criticised football association in Argentina, While Romario criticised corruption within CBF. Socrates was known to wear headbands in matches to protest against the dictator regime in Brazil, and in doing so risking his own neck. Ronaldo and Pele, in turn, only endorsed business connections and promoting their sponsors, never heard of them criticising CBF or government. This is what I said in my previous posts.

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