Scotland's possible new format

Discussion in 'MLS: Commissioner - You be The Don' started by JasonMa, Jan 8, 2013.

  1. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

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    So, this is interesting, considering all the "We have to be like Europe!" posts in this forum. Scotland will be voting on this new format that may start as soon as next year if passed:

    http://www.queenofthesouth-mad.co.uk/feat/ed14/new_league_structure_proposal_777979/index.shtml

    Currently the system is 12-10-10-10 with the bottom 3 divisions playing 4 games against every other team in the division while the SPL uses the split system.
    soccersubjectively repped this.


  2. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator Staff Member

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    Hmm.. That is an interesting way to go about it.. I wonder what happens with the National League? Are they cut off from promotion to the Championship, or is it standard pro/rel with the bottom X from Championship falling to National, while top X from the National going up to Championship?
  3. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

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    My guess would be standard pro/rel between the Championship and the National. I can't imagine any plan without it getting anywhere near the required 75% of the vote from the league members, so why bother proposing it.
  4. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator Staff Member

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    Well, either way, it will certainly speed things up in getting the Rangers back into SPL. I'd imagine since they are pushing the proposal through quickly they are looking to get it in place for next season, which means the Rangers would go from two leagues below SPL, to one league below. I am, of course, making the assumption that the Rangers will be getting promoted from SFL3 this season


  5. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

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    Rangers wouldn't automatically qualify for the Championship. As the best of the bottom 10, they would still be in that group of 18 forming the National division.

    That said, yeah, I fully expect that if this is accepted there will be a provision in it where the Championship is made p of the 10 sides that would normally be in Division 1 next year after the pro/rel of this season, the best team not promoted from Division 2 after this season, and Rangers.
  6. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

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    So D1 plays 22 games then they split 8 and 4.
    D2 plays 22 games then they split 4 and 8
    D3 plays 34 games with no split right.

    Then we get
    Top 8 playing for Europe spots playing 14 more games.

    A mixed group of bottom 4D1 and top 4D2 playing 14 games, at the end the top 4 teams go to D1, bottom 4 teams go D2

    Then the bottom 8 D2 teams play 14 games, the top 4 at the end stay in D2, then the bottom 4 will face the best 4 teams from D3?
  7. Kappa74

    Kappa74 Member+

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    I see the Jacobite spirit hasn't completely died. They just need to start calling it soccer to get this rebellion going. Hope it works. What a mess it has been.
  8. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

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    This is the part that hasn't been clarified yet.
  9. triplet1

    triplet1 BigSoccer Supporter

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  10. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

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    Under this system, which of the Scottish leagues and clubs will be playing competitive matches within FIFA International Match windows?

    Surely some of the lower level leagues, but not the top league, correct?
  11. m vann

    m vann Member+

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    They are going from a 4 tier system to 3 tiers. Rangers are currently 4th tier. If they win the current league they are in the new 3rd division and if they lose the title they are in the new 3rd division. Little changes. Regardless of what happens, they are 2 leagues below the top division. The new league structure won't "fast track" them. Of it did, ,psg clubs would reject the new proposal.
  12. CoconutMonkey

    CoconutMonkey Member

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    Wow. That's pretty wacky.

    Not sure how I feel about splitting the season. But if a club is in relegation trouble, I suppose it makes sense that they play a round robin against the clubs that might replace them. Beats a relegation playoff IMO.
  13. Inca Roads

    Inca Roads Member+

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    To me, this is a creative solution to try to fix one of the most sadly broken leagues around. While it's all a bunch of clever ideas to shape the leagues up, I think one of the big bits is that since it will all be under a single league structure, all 42 teams will be sharing revenue. I doubt Celtic will love it, but I can see every other club in the nation wanting to wrest a tiny bit of power from that unchallenged dynasty Rangers left to them.
  14. Zxcv

    Zxcv Member

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    The honest to god truth of the matter is that a country of 5 million people should not have to support a fully professional domestic league. They have, at best, enough room for 3 teams (two in Glasgow, one is Edinburgh), with only Glasgow having over a million people.

    It disappointing when people criticize these kind of leagues, but forget to take into account just how difficult it is to sustain a professional league in such a small market; and with the accessibility of foreign leagues right on their doorstep, its no wonder towns of 70,000 people who used to average 10,000 a match are now being criticized for only averaging 5,000. Where is the sense in that?

    The future of leagues of Scotland's ilk are not good. Not because people are losing interest, but because TV propagation has made local teams, who once used to be the only real way of watching soccer, redundant. Quite frankly, the future of Scottish soccer lies in Celtic/Rangers participation in any pan-European or newly devised regional leagues. Perhaps there will be a combination of an expanded Champions League where they participate regularly, while still competing in the SPL. But lets drop the pretence that Scottish soccer is anything other than what should be expected in this day and age.

    As for the league format, its a complete mindf***.
  15. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

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    The Russian Premier League did this scheme in the last third of their 18 month long 2010-2011 switch season.

    I personally liked it ... even if a bunch of RPL matches were likely to have been fixed in favor of the eventual champion.
  16. CoconutMonkey

    CoconutMonkey Member

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    Man, when you put it that way, it's actually pretty amazing that they have as many professional clubs as it is.
  17. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

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    Georgia (the country) already has what Scotland is proposing, except Georgia has the second level divided into two groups, but I can't explain it because Wikipedia isn't updated and another site contradicts Wikipedia about how the groups work after the regular season.
  18. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator Staff Member

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    I find it utterly repulsive that Europe isn't trying to be like the rest of the world.
    Hachiko and profiled repped this.
  19. Potowmack

    Potowmack Member+

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    The gap between the various tiers of professional clubs in Europe has expanded dramatically over the last few decades. A lot of Europeans have a romantic notion of soccer that hasn't been in touch with reality for some time now. Sure, a lower-tier professional team in Upper Western Sheepshire was viable back 60 years ago, and there may be some left over interest for such teams. But, given that anyone can watch Manchester United or Barcelona play on TV, teams like that are a tough sell for many people. This type of competition is a problem even for mid-tier leagues like MLS. It's absolutely lethal for marginal lower-division teams in Europe.

    Regional leagues are probably inevitable. It's just a matter of how long it will take for FIFA and UEFA to accept this reality.
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  20. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

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  21. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator Staff Member

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    Are the rangers pissed that all the SFL3 teams would be "promoted" to NL? If so, that seems to be a rather silly reason to oppose the restructuring. It's a one year thing and there will be 8 new teams in the league beyond the SFL3 teams the Rangers are playing this season. However, it does make the remaining games this season meaningless for SFL3 and SPL teams.
  22. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

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    Also for Stranraer and Albion. Realistically they aren't going to get to 4th place to be part of the promotion playoffs, and relegation to D3 is meaningless under the new format, they'll just be in the same group as they would have if they survived.

    If you assume that the top 24 will be some combination of the current 12 SPL teams and the 8 SFL1 teams that don't finish in relegation spots, that leaves 4 teams to be chosen from the 9th and 10th place finishers in SFL1, plus the top 4 finishers in SFL2. I'm assuming 1 would be the champion of SFL2, so how do you pick 3 from 5? Outside of that, everyone else in SFL2 and everyone in SFL3 will end up in the same group.

    Then you'll have the battle in SFL1 and the bottom of the SPL to stay/get in the top division and not be in the Championship.
  23. Zxcv

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    I used to be against that argument, but the more I watch La Liga or Serie A, the more I feel that soccer at a national level just doesn't have a future. I don't mean in the next 10 or even 20 years, but beyond that its difficult to see how it can sustain so many professional leagues.

    The average MLS game is infinitely more exciting to watch than the average Serie A match for instance. Yes, that is only my opinion, but I think its valid. Everything rises and falls, and Serie A's time was clearly in the late 80s-early 90s, when they averaged upwards of 38,000. Even with the new stadiums which are going to creep in over time - though that will give it a chance to gain back some credibility - it won't be enough to arrest the slide into mediocrity. Watching the latest batch of highlights, you would think Italians hate soccer. Its a depressing sight seeing so many empty stadiums in what is supposed to be one of the sports key markets. I hate the term "product", but its apt in this example; as a product, the Serie A fails on a number of levels. If you're not watching a game in Turin these days, you really have no reason to watch Serie A, because everything about lacks, well, pizazz. Mind you, I'm watching the Juve - Milan cup clash at Juventus' new stadium, and its a great endorsement for Italian football, and a sign of its potential. But these kind of games are few and far between, and almost always involve on of the major 6 teams.

    Without the Bundesliga and English Premier League (leaving out the CL), it would be hard to see what all the fuss is about with European soccer.

    Personally thats what I like about American ownership in Europe. It might hasten the anachronistic nature of European soccer. Though UEFA are helping things along as well.

    Though like in any competitive environment, it needs competitors to spur it to move forward. On the one hand, you have the EPL, whose contracts are beginning to really break away from the other leagues, which could drive the teams from the other big leagues to play catch up in innovative ways. On the other hand, there still isn't enough pressure from leagues outside of Europe, though that should begin to change over the next few decades.

    I think one of the reasons why we haven't moved on quicker is that soccers fanbase created prior to the TV revolution, which is still attending matches in drove, have yet to die off for lack of a better phrase.

    I get the sense that once they begin to drop off, the replacement level of fans for countless numbers of clubs just isn't going to be around to fill the seats. That will create a virtuous circle from which there is no escape.

    I think timezone differences between Europe and the Americas should ensure that MLS's main competition will be found within North or South America. In other words, MLS will need to ensure its better than LigaMX and Brazilian Serie A. Those are the only two leagues capable of being richer than the MLS long term (sorry Argentina), and enjoying the luxuries that come with being the richest.
  24. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

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    The Euro zone soccer leagues have such horrible problems they were only able to generate $20B worth of revenues.

    http://www.deloitte.com/assets/Dcom-UnitedKingdom/Local Assets/Documents/Industries/Sports Business Group/uk-sbg-annual-football-finance-review-2012-highlights.pdf

    I chalk it off to another "MLS fan thinks white is black" post... sort of like the recent thread of EPL having some sort of imagined non-MLS type - i.e., revenues and market share - problems.
  25. Zxcv

    Zxcv Member

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    Its all rosy in Europeland. In a continent with 53 associations, there are 6 leagues that can even come close to being called respectable. Of those 6, two can be categorized as not being mired in debt.

    No one is under the impression that these leagues aren't generating revenues, and the Financial Fair Play rules coming into play have the possibility of changing the landscape for the better. That said, if you believe that criticizing European leagues for their financial situation is a bit of a laugh, then we'll agree to disagree.

    I'm not sitting here saying national leagues will disappear in 5 years time. 30-40 years? You bet. They are on the way out, and anyone who can't see that is kidding themselves in a century where Europe is going to be challenged for supremacy from Asia and the Americas. For now, they are undoubtedly the strongest, and it will continue for some time yet. Once the paradigm begins to show its face more clearly in a few decades - even if its already underway - the long mooted shake up could/will become a reality. And we can't rule it out happening on the whims of the ECA or UEFA.



    Serie A:

    La Liga:

    EPL


    Eredivisie

    When Saturday Comes repped this.

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