Siccors move vs. step over

Discussion in 'Coach' started by Rob55, Mar 3, 2012.

  1. Rob55

    Rob55 Member

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    Just working all of the footskill training, it brought a question to me that I didn't know answer to. When in the game situations when is it more beneficial to pull out the scissors move instead of a step-over move? One you swoop your foot a different direction around the ball than the other and that is about it. Is there any reason to use one or the other or is it just a personal preference thing and they both are equally effective in same situation if executed well?


  2. MiguelNajdorf

    MiguelNajdorf Member

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    Scissors is used when facing a defender, faking a take one direction and taking going the other way, used most often in the attacking third to beat a defender 1v1. I've also heard coaches say it can be useful when you simply want to get the ball on the other foot. Your fake may not be so strong as to "beat" the defender, but the move has allowed a change of direction.

    A Stepover can be used face up, but is more often used with your back to the defender, especially when closely guarded, so you can create room to play the ball. It's a "safe" moved used this way, because your body shields the ball. This move is effective all over the field, but mostly seen closer to the touchlines and defensive third.

    This is my interpretation from things I've heard from Coerver instructors, hope this helps.

    The terminology can be confusing - I use the terms used by Coerver. I know Robinho is sometimes called the "Stepover King" in videos, and they show him doing scissors moves.
  3. Twenty26Six

    Twenty26Six Feeling Sheepish...

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    Not really. This is just how it tends to be applied by too many. And, it really bugs me that people use this when they should just pass the ball to their damn goalkeeper (or any negative support player) instead of trying to turn blindly into a defender.

    * The stepover is a body motion move not a stationary move (like the L/del Piero or V/Puskas) - meaning both feet change position rather than one or both standing still.

    * The stepover can is an outside-in move whereas the scissor is an inside-out move.

    * To execute the stepover, the ball can be, but does not have to be, moving.

    * The stepover can be executed when moving forward, sideways, or backward. Although, moving backwards over the ball is more a "trick" than an effective move.

    * The stepover can be executed with the dribbling leg or the opposite leg, but I personally prefer the latter.

    * The stepover can also be executed in combination with a fake shot.

    ***Some people call a "scissor" a "stepover" because during in one of the many variants of the "scissor move" a foot can step over and around the ball in a circle.***


    I personally like the stepover used as a forward move that allows the dribble to fake a forward push in at one angle and attack the other. The stepover is generally easier to pull off and tends to fool defenders a bit better because it involves a lot of side-to-side hip movement if done properly (whereas the scissor employs more stabbing leg/foot movement).
  4. rca2

    rca2 Member

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    I am beginning to think I don't know what a "stepover" is. I learned to dribble playing pickup games on school playgrounds with no one telling us how to play. (Do elementary schools still have "recess" periods to allow the kids time to burn off some excess energy?) I was interpeting "stepover" literally: stepping over the ball.

    I stepover the ball when I want to switch the ball from one side of the foot to the other. It could be to move the ball away from a potential tackler while dribbling for penetration or to maintain possession.

    I stepover the ball when I want to change directions. This could be pulling the ball one direction, stepping over, and pushing in the opposite direction with the same foot. I also stepover the ball (outside to inside) and then play with the opposite foot, but people don't call that a stepover. I don't know what name they call that.

    I do this side to side usually, but I also will step over the ball (back to front) and play the ball back or sideways with my heel and spin turn to dribble in another direction. The sense I get is that stepping over the ball and playing with the heel is not what people are calling a stepover.

    I see people teaching a spin turn based on touching the top of the ball, but I find stepping over the ball and using the heel pretty easy to do from a sprint. I find the other spin turn very difficult to do at speed or when looking up. I also find it almost impossible to do on the lumpy natural fields I too often play (and train) on. Some are so bad you cannot dribble at speed at all.

    I had always thought that a scissors was stepping over the ball diagonally in a motion that appeared to be a touch (inside to out) from the leg motion, but wasn't. With the ball rolling forward, you are then able to play the ball in the opposite direction from the fake with the inside of the foot that just scissored.

    Which to me means that he scissors is a particular type of stepover.


  5. rca2

    rca2 Member

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    This is not a technical question; it is a tactical question. I don't believe in telling players of any age and level what to do tactically when attacking. I always discuss tactics in terms of alternatives, never absolutes. Because in soccer tactics there are no absolutes. If you only do one thing in a given circumstance, eventually it will be the wrong thing to do because the defense will adapt. I teach defensive tactics differently. In defense, you want predictability and discipline, not surprise.
  6. Grover168

    Grover168 New Member

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    [​IMG]This is not a technical question; it is a tactical question.
  7. snolly g

    snolly g Member

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    you may be over-managing the players. but you could just teach the techniques, and let the players figure out when to use them.

    but the idea is simple enough:
    scissors, fake going outside, then go inside.
    stepover, fake going inside, then go outside.
    (by "outside", i mean, outer side of the body, not outer side of the field.)

    which one the player uses depends on many variables--the angle of the defender, the positioning of defender's teammates, the positioning of player's teammates, the location of goal.
  8. Rob55

    Rob55 Member

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    Thanks! I think I can visualize it now. I was just trying to be able to have answers for the girls if they ask "what's the difference/why do I need to train in each footskill?" If it comes up I just want to be able to demonstrate and/or explain the differences and provide an example situation in a game where it could be effective.
  9. elessar78

    elessar78 Moderator Staff Member

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    I think this is where personal experience with the game of soccer comes in handy. Not saying it's an absolute must, but it is useful. Even moves I haven't done/don't do myself I've seen others do it and see how it serves them.

    For example, stepover-chop with the defender on my back. Typically I've always been the type of player TwentySix describes—just play the way you face because trying to play into an unknown situation can be a recipe for trouble. But I did a licensing course with this young lady who used it pretty effectively when her back was to goal (in midfield). I still don't do it much, but I do use it and I have seen how it's used effectively.

    Second example, I play against this guy who is a phenomenal player. He uses it. He has really quick feet so he'll let the ball roll and he'll do multiple stepovers. It's mesmerizing, the stepovers don't fake me out but it throws off your timing as to when the player is going to come out of it and cut away.

    As a rule, you don't bite on the fakes. They can dance all day in front of me it's the ball getting by me that I'm concerned about. Personally, I don't like these moves. They've rarely been effective against me and I'm not the best defender (forward by trade). On the attacking end, I feel it slows down speed of play. But that's also what it's good for . . . slow down play, buy yourself time while teammates get into position in and around the penalty area.
  10. Twenty26Six

    Twenty26Six Feeling Sheepish...

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    That's what people don't really understand. These types of moves "freeze" the defender in a moment of hesitancy, so you can move first into a new direction.
  11. GAZZA821

    GAZZA821 Member

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    Agreed. Not really used to beat defender, although it can happen. Used more to freeze the defender so you get a second to move into space so you can shoot, pass, or dribble.
  12. Twenty26Six

    Twenty26Six Feeling Sheepish...

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    It also must be noted that, at the highest level, it's all about shifting balance. And, anything that gets the defender to shift their weight in the wrong direction (not necessarily move that way) will be advantageous to the attacker. It's similar in that regard to boxing.
  13. snolly g

    snolly g Member

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    in that respect, i think they're no more or less effective than any other feint.
  14. nicklaino

    nicklaino Member

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    You don't need a lot of moves to beat a defender. But you need some. The ones that work the best for each individual player. So what works good for one might not work good for another player.


    Still need a quick change of pace and a quick change of direction off your dribble. So have your guys play tag against each other. First without the ball then with the ball.


    You should be able to start any more with either foot.


    The half scissor is a move to beat a defender.


    The full scissor is not a move to beat the defender. It is a move to freeze a defender to gain the dribbler more time to look up the field. The great thing about the full scissor is the ball is just moving straight while you do it.

    The even greater thing about the full scissor is if a young kid uses it at a tryout. He is going to impress his American coach even if the move actually does nothing :) as long as he does not lose the ball. Make a pass after it. They remember a move like this and the player who does it.


    Another move you need is a pullback. Especially if pressure is on you. Now the defender see's the ball and then all of a sudden. He doesn't see it anymore.


    Also a move to change your direction without needing another player to do it. Like the cryuff love that move. Plus if you practice it you can shoot off it like Donadoni used to do, and you can get the shot off in congested space. it is a great move to own. Be able to start it using either foot and learn to shoot off it.
  15. elessar78

    elessar78 Moderator Staff Member

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    Not exactly. A Matthews, for example, incorporates the ball with the fake. I find a good Matthews move more difficult to defend—particularly when they have mastered the Matthews, Fake Matthews, and Reverse Matthews. But that could just be me.

    On a different note, back to the "threat" . . . if the threat of the scissors is the outside cut. Probably the most basic of moves to beat a defender. That's a simple change of speed/change of direction move.

    Again, another good example of the "threat". Cruyff's threat was that he would shoot or pass before doing his eponymous cut back. Cruyff could stick a beautiful pass or stick it under the cross bar, so you didn't want him striking the shot. Hence you must defend it or be burned.

    A lot of our young players tend to over-defend ANYTHING, even if the threat of danger to our goal is not present.
  16. ranova

    ranova Member

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    The only problem I have with teaching the Cruyff is when coaches teach it to U-littles as one of the first moves they learn, and they are playing 3v3 with popup goals. It is a fake cross (big wind up and then cut inside instead of striking the ball). There are no crosses in 3v3 (or big windup shots). So it seems a waste of time to me. For beginners, I would stick to basic moves that comprise 90% of what you see in matches: inside cut, outside cut, and a stepover turn. Mathews is another good tool to mix in. So is a dragback turn.
  17. elessar78

    elessar78 Moderator Staff Member

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    Interesting, despite not having big crosses in the game I think the wind up would be useful as many kids will flinch at it, no?

    -----

    On another note, more and more I come to believe that we need to be teaching moves in combination. There will always be a second defender to deal with, so scissors cut away THEN into a hard inside cut (or another move) anticipating the second the defender.

    The way it's taught now, it assumes that the game situation is that we are in on goal (or something where another decision is not quickly made). If we're building for the future, then this is my 2-cents.
  18. JoseP

    JoseP Member

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    I think as long as the kid keeps the ball tight they're good to go. I tell my kids once they've beat a player they've got a new landscape and need to re-evaluate what to do to next.

    I like to play a 2v3 (sometimes 2v6) where each defender is in a 10 yard wide by 5 yard long box. The 2 players have to go through each box with the ball. It requires the player to beat or pass to get through the first box. That immediately puts them in the second box and so on where they need to decide quickly what to do.

    I, usually, tell my defenders to play passively to start. Without fail kids will pass immediately after beating the first player. Takes time to correct that response.
  19. nicklaino

    nicklaino Member

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    "Without fail kids will pass immediately after beating the first player. Takes time to correct that response"

    Well my first coach who was also a father figure to me thought all of us to do that. He had very few tactics, but that was one of them. No matter what position you played in. Take on the first defender because if you beat that first defender that created more space to play in and to pass in.

    If some one was open afrer you beat the first defender he wanted you to pass to an open player. Not to keep taking on players.

    He would never tell a back not to take on the first defender because you could lose the ball trying to do it. I was a back and he was a fun guy to play for.
  20. snolly g

    snolly g Member

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    that's because you try to defend the ball, instead of defending the situation. :D
    sXeWesley repped this.
  21. elessar78

    elessar78 Moderator Staff Member

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    To this day I've never seen the whole of the situation cross the line and score a goal.
    sXeWesley repped this.
  22. Twenty26Six

    Twenty26Six Feeling Sheepish...

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    Nice! :D

    Nicer! :p
  23. MiguelNajdorf

    MiguelNajdorf Member

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    Like your explanation better than mine. I'm guilty of oversimplifying, and also of not being clear about showing "examples" of "possible" uses of a move rather than sounding like a rulebook.
  24. snolly g

    snolly g Member

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    heh.

    well, it's like you said. what's the threat? when you think about it, the ball isn't actually the threat. it's where the ball is (or will be) that's the threat. that's what i mean by "the situation".
  25. tjonesy10

    tjonesy10 New Member

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