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The best players of the season 1980-1

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by comme, Jan 22, 2012.

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  1. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2003
    I said before that I was trying to create a "rangliste" for the whole of Europe from some historical seasons. I was originally intending to start with 1990-1, but thought I would see if I was able to start 10 years earlier.

    I've listed below a draft of the best players by position for Europe, and would like some feedback and suggestions on players. Who've I missed out, who shouldn't be included?

    If any of you want to have a stab at assigning the three ratings (world class, international class and national class) to the players then please feel free to.

    Goalkeepers
    Luis Arconada (Real Sociedad and Spain)
    Dino Zoff (Juventus and Italy)
    Harald Schumacher (Koln and West Germany)
    Peter Shilton (Nottingham Forest and England)
    Manuel Bento (Benfica and Portugal)
    Ronnie Hellstroem (Kaiserslautern and Sweden)
    Urruti (Espanyol and Spain)
    Paco Buyo (Sevilla and Spain)
    Ray Clemence (Liverpool and England)
    Rinat Dasaev (Spartak Moscow and Russia)
    Jean Castaneda (St Etienne and France)
    Thomas Ravelli (Osters and Sweden)

    Full-backs
    Jose Camacho (Real Madrid and Spain)
    Rafael Gordillo (Real Betis and Spain)
    Maxime Bossis (Nantes and France)
    Manfred Kaltz (Hamburg and West Germany)
    Mick Mills (Ipswich Town and England)
    Hugo Hovenkamp (AZ Alkmaar and Holland)
    Kenny Swain (Aston Villa and England)
    Wolfgang Dremmler (Bayern Munich and West Germany)
    Kenny Sansom (Arsenal and England)
    Cundi (Sporting Gijon and Spain)
    Eric Gerets (Standard Liege and Belgium)
    Antonio Cabrini (Juventus and Italy)
    Phil Neal (Liverpool and England)

    Sweepers
    Ruud Krol (Napoli and Holland)
    Gaetano Scirea (Juventus and Italy)
    Luc Millecamps (Waregem and Belgium)
    Russell Osman (Ipswich Town and England)
    Aleksandr Chivadze (Dinamo Tbilisi and USSR)
    Alan Hansen (Liverpool and Scotland)
    Bruno Pezzey (Eintracht Frankfurt and Austria)
    John Metgod (AZ Alkmaar and Holland)
    Wilfried Hannes (Borussia Moenchengladbach and West Germany)
    Dieter Bast (Bochum and West Germany)

    Stoppers
    Hans-Peter Briegel (Kaiserslautern and West Germany)
    Miguel Tendillo (Valencia and Spain)
    Terry Butcher (Ipswich Town and England)
    Rolf Russman (Borussia Dortmund and West Germany)
    Allan Evans (Aston Villa and Scotland)
    Ricardo Arias (Valencia and Spain)
    Christian Lopez (St Etienne and France)
    Marius Tresor (Bordeaux and France)
    Claudio Gentile (Juventus and Italy)
    Pietro Vierchowod (Como and Italy)
    Phil Thompson (Liverpool and England)

    Defensive midfielders
    Graeme Souness (Liverpool and Scotland)
    Uli Stielike (Real Madrid and West Germany)
    Marco Tardelli (Juventus and Italy)
    Miguel Alonso (Real Sociedad and Spain)
    Giampieri Marini (Internazionale and Italy)
    Giuseppe Dossena (Bologna and Italy)

    Central midfielders
    Paul Breitner (Bayern Munich and West Germany)
    Paulo Roberto Falcao (Roma and Brazil)
    Jan Peters (AZ Alkmaar and Holland)
    Jesus Zamora (Real Sociedad and Spain)
    Herbert Neumann (Udinese and West Germany)
    Felix Magath (Hamburg and West Germany)
    Frans Thijssen (Ipswich Town and Holland)
    Arnold Muhren (Ipswich Town and Holland)
    Bryan Robson (West Bromwich Albion and England)
    Daniel Solsona (Valencia and Spain)
    Dirceu (Atletico Madrid and Brazil)
    Bernd Schuster (Barcelona and West Germany)
    Leonid Buryak (Dynamo Kiev and USSR)
    Terry McDermott (Liverpool and England)
    Osvaldo Ardiles (Tottenham Hotspur and Argentina)

    Attacking midfielders
    Michel Platini (St Etienne and France)
    Liam Brady (Juventus and Republic of Ireland)
    John Wark (Ipswich Town and Scotland)
    Giancarlo Antognoni (Fiorentina and Italy)
    David Kipiani (Dinamo Tbilisi and USSR)
    Herbert Prohaska (Internazionale and Austria)
    Kristen Nygaard (AZ Alkmaar and Denmark)
    Joao Alves (Benfica and Portugal)
    Hansi Muller (Stuttgart and West Germany)
    Asgeir Sigurvinsson (Standard Liege and Iceland)
    Glenn Hoddle (Tottenham Hotspur and England)
    Juan Lozano (Beerschot and Spain)

    Wingers
    Remaz Shengelia (Dinamo Tbilisi and USSR)
    Bruno Conti (Roma and Italy)
    Bernd Hölzenbein (Eintracht Frankfurt and West Germany)
    Juanito (Outside right) (Real Madrid and Spain)
    Enzo Ferrero (Sporting Gijon and Argentina)
    Roberto Lopez Ufarte (Real Sociedad and Spain)
    Marcos (Atletico Madrid and Spain)
    Dominique Rochetau (Paris Saint-Germain and France)

    Forwards
    Kenny Dalglish (Liverpool and Scotland)
    Karl-Heinz Rummenigge (Bayern Munich and West Germany)
    Tibor Nyilasi (Ferencvaros and Hungary)
    Roberto Martinez (Espanyol and Spain)
    Allan Simonsen (Barcelona and Denmark)
    Zbigniew Boniek (Widzew Lodz and Poland)
    Johnny Rep (St Etienne and Holland)
    Walter Schachner (Austria Vienna and Austria)
    Oleg Blokhin (Dynamo Kiev and USSR)
    Bernard Lacombe (Bordeaux and France)
    Yuri Gavrilov (Spartak Moscow and USSR)

    Strikers
    Jesus Sastrustegui (Real Sociedad and Spain)
    Peter Withe (Aston Villa and England)
    Roberto Pruzzo (Torino and Italy)
    Delio Onnis (Tours and Argentina)
    Quini (Barcelona and Spain)
    Manfred Burgsmuller (Borussia Dortmund and West Germany)
    Gary Shaw (Aston Villa and England)
    Erwin Vandenbergh (Lierse and Belgium)
    Uwe Krausse (Stade Lavallois and West Germany)
    Ruud Geels (Sparta Rotterdam and Holland)
    Steve Archibald (Tottenham Hotspur and Scotland)
     


  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Don't see what Millecamps does in the list.

    List omits Vercauteren.

    And Rolf Rüssmann even has not an 'international class' rating from bible kicker. Same with Holzenbein and Bast
     
  3. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    Millecamps was named to Onze Mundial's team of the year for 2011.

    Vercauteren probably does merit a place.

    All of the German based players received high ratings by Kicker for the season.
     
  4. lanman

    lanman BigSoccer Supporter

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    Aug 30, 2002
    comme, you've got Steve Archibald down as English.
     


  5. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    Good catch. I'll amend that.
     
  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Vercauteren was the highest rated player of the championship winning Anderlecht squad. He also scored 10 goals, the highest in his career (so far). On top of that, he established himself as a starter in the NT.
     
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    I see. Ceulemans is named as well in the 1981 Onze Mundial team...

    I see, all in the top 10 of that season.

    Inconsistent.
     
  8. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

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    Nice thread mate :cool:

    Some thoughts:
    - Tresor & Lopez were partners in NT (Lopez as SW?). Same with partnership Thompson & Butcher.
    - I thought that Zamora and Magath were more like #10 or AMs.
    - Also, about Brady & Wark i thought were more like #8 or CMs.
    - Thijssen & A.Muhren played the same role as CM in both club & NT? I thought Thijssen was like a false winger (i.e Conti)
    - About Sigurvinsson you forgot include his nationality & i think his 1st name is Asgeir.
    - I think Roberto Martinez played w/#9 or striker role.
    - I also see Boniek still playing a mid role, not so advanced like in his Juventus days.
    - I think, Burgsmuller was playing as a #10 at that time?


    Another question, what year, had Lozano the Belgium nationality?
     
  9. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    Good work again comme.
    It's difficult to assess individual seasons and I'm sure you may have already considered these and felt the seasons might not stand out for them but these players were probably around their peak at that time and might be worth a place?:
    Vladimir Petrovic
    Safet Susic
    Jan Ceulemans
    Jean Tigana
    Viv Anderson
    Soren Lerby
    I wouldn't be certain about any of them, and I could name more similar cases probably, but I thought I'd put the names out there for discussion/research/info from those with particular knowledge (babaorum may know more about Tigana, perhaps Puck might have some reference about Ceulemans' season etc).
    I understand why you'd limit it to European-based players but maybe for the top ten of the season (I think you mentioned you might compile one) Zico for example would be a clear enough choice to include?
     
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Ceulemans was tired from the season before (1979/1980) where he also impressed in euro80. Plus, he had some minor injuries, although he kept playing. Furthermore, after the successes of the years before, many key-players disappointed as well. He wasn't named in the top 5 of the Belgian League calender year 1981 (partly caused by the bad form of Brugge in the first half of 1981/1982, when many player had left the club and Ceulemans had to carry them on his own).

    How do you know about Petrovic his form?
     
  11. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    He was and he was also voted for in the Ballon D'Or. I attributed that though to something of a carry over from the previous year.

    For Millecamps though I saw no reason for readers of a French magazine (I guess it's probably on sale in Belgium as well, I once got a copy of it in Morocco) to choose him if he hadn't been particularly good?

    Part of this is undeniably guesswork, but that was my line of reasoning.
     
  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Soren Lerby: experienced key player of Ajax but also infamous for his outbursts... the myth goes that his departure in the summer of 1983 liberated someone named Marco van Basten... Dunno exactly his particular form throughout the season but he is today acknowledged as one of the 'carrying players' of Ajax at that time and in the year when they reached the semi-final of the European Cup (in 1979/1980).
     
  13. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    I think in European and certainly English football the distinction between a CM and AM would not be clear but including the likes of Hoddle and certainly Platini as AM's makes sense. But if Hoddle can be an AM I'd imagine Brady can probably be too.

    I don't know if Lozano needs a re-check, but I really don't know a lot about him so Wikipedia might be misleading in terms of when he went to play in the USA.

    I think Frans Thijssen should be a winger.

    A bit of a long-shot that would require some backing-up but Ruud Gullit playing I think maybe as a sweeper? Maybe 81/82 would be a better choice, when btw I think Cruyff has to be included.
     
  14. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    Thanks. 79/80 does seem more of a clear case for Ceulemans (same for Lerby too as mentioned).
    And Petrovic is mainly a guess although I think he was starring for Red Star up until his transfer to Arsenal a season or two after 80/81. Triton might be a good person to consult on that one.
     
  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    The calendar year 1981 is a no go indeed (Club Brugge was even close to the relegation zone).

    The season 1980/1981 merits further research.

    His profile in a book about the Belgian golden shoe says that he lost many points in the second half of the 1981 year. Similarly, his fifth place for 1982 calender year was predominantly based (I'd say 75/25 ratio) on the second half of 1982.

    Fair point, but he wasn't named in the top 5 and strangely enough, the belgian coach choose him for his defensive qualities, not so much for his build-up qualities as libero (he was kind-of a quasi-stopper I think, anyhow, he had sometimes a man to mark).
     
  16. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    Cheers for the comments.

    - Tresor & Lopez were partners in NT (Lopez as SW?). Same with partnership Thompson & Butcher. Thompson was certainly decent on the ball.
    - I thought that Zamora and Magath were more like #10 or AMs. Zamora possibly. Magath was again, something in between I thought.
    - Also, about Brady & Wark i thought were more like #8 or CMs. Brady was more of a schemer, Wark more of a dynamic player. Wark certainly dropped deeper later in his career. That season he scored 35 goals.
    - Thijssen & A.Muhren played the same role as CM in both club & NT? I thought Thijssen was like a false winger (i.e Conti) Maybe Thijssen needs to be moved to the wingers then
    - About Sigurvinsson you forgot include his nationality & i think his 1st name is Asgeir. Good point. I was distracted by his move to Bayern and included both clubs.
    - I think Roberto Martinez played w/#9 or striker role. If that was the cawe then he'll probably drop out of the list.
    - I also see Boniek still playing a mid role, not so advanced like in his Juventus days. I always regarded him as someone difficult to categorise. He played between the roles alot of the time
    - I think, Burgsmuller was playing as a #10 at that time? Hopefully Greg will have a look at this thread. I'm not sure is the honest answer
     
  17. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    Petrovic I think only played about 20 odd games that season. That was my reason for excluding him. Not sure on Susic.

    Tigana is a good shout, as is Lerby. I need to find Lerby's stats for the season. The only Dutch based players I picked were from AZ who won the double and got to the UEFA Cup final.

    I'm not sure on opening it up to non-European based players. The likes of Zico in many seasons are obvious, it's just that I'm a completist. If I open it up I want it to be as complete and accurate as it can be.
     
  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Maybe interesting for you to note: the insistence of Ceulemans to play through the (minor) pain at a time when he switched more and more into a central role (although he did play before sometimes in centre as back-up) started his image of possessing a 'never die', 'never give up' attitude. It made him together with the rejection of Italian offers very popular amongst the crowd.

    The Netherlands had at that time no consistent rating for players so the form of Lerby is guess work I think. The only thing I know is that he was a very dominant player, which began to cause some frictions, or at least it came finally to the surface, in the last season of him at Ajax in 1982/1983. He was for a long time vice-captain and became captain in the summer of 1981 (yes, I looked this up).

    I see.
     
  19. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    Yeah I saw Petrovic's games played were a bit down on surrounding seasons (though his GPG compared well - for a player like him I think it'd be his creativity rather than goals scored that'd be the biggest indicator of his form/value though). Was it a case of about 30 games max in the league in Yugoslavia at that time? I think Triton is the best placed to comment or provide further info/footage, or other Yugoslav posters.

    Good inclusion of Metgod IMO (I guess both him and a young Gullit would be overlooked in the sweeper position for Holland with Krol still around at that stage).

    Fair enough on the restriction to European-based players. Is that the way you did it for 90/91 too (I hadn't thought about it but I won't recommend Rai or Cerezo for example in following seasons in the early 90's while they were at Sao Paolo if that's the case)?
     
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    How to gauge Tigana's form?:confused: He isn't in the Ballon d'Or lists. Understandably, because it was his first season as NT-player. France Football maybe had ratings but I think they aren't anywhere on the net.
     
  21. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    Difficult but his transfer fee was significant I think. He came in for Platini for France when he was injured I think (into the 3 man midfield; worth noting Genghini was being selected ahead of Tigana as a first-choice - maybe Genghini could be worth a 1* himself?).

    Good info on Ceulemans btw. You might also be able to translate useful stuff from this video (some rare good footage of excellent goals too - not sure if any of them in 80/81):
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTzBXsK2gsM"]Sportweekend - Jan Ceulemans - YouTube[/ame]
     
  22. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    One of the things I tend to look for where there is a lack of rankings/ratings or articles to support it is where a previously uncapped (or unestablished) player establishes himself in a national team.

    Undoubtedly it is imperfect, but if a player can force his way into the national team he must have played fairly well, because people don't normally get capped for playing badly.

    This sort of logic can definitely lead to errors. For instance it is easy to pick a big name player who logically should have played well, but in reality didn't. For instance Patrice Evra should have been good last season, given that he is a top full-back, United won the title and made it to the CL final. If I was guessing 30 years later, I would assume he played well in 2010-11. In reality that wasn't the case.

    In the case of Jean Tigana, his form in 1980-1 also eanred him a move to Bordeaux who were on the up and were recruiting a number of top French players. That would also suggest that he was doing well.
     
  23. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

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    Can anyone confirm if Krol played as DM at Napoli?
    I also voted for restricted to only European-based players. If anyone wants to did the South American version, it will be ok :)
     
  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Yes, I agree with you in this case.

    That said, I do think that transfer fees are misleading. A lot of (irrational) factors contributes towards it. Everyone knows some overpriced signings (even when it turned out well), as well as some bargains. Also famous is the world record signing of Gullit in 1987 while Van Basten was very cheap... for a large extent because he had some clauses in his contract and Gullit not. It was the pre-Bosman era but it wasn't forbidden to construct transfer-limiting clauses. And it was also not forbidden to make transfer-inflating constructions, for example with help of third parties.

    In sum, I think your method is indeed more solid than looking at transfer fees.
     
  25. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

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    Until the inclussion of Vercauteren, this is the resume for countries:

    TOTAL = 110 players
    W.Germany = 17
    Spain = 17
    England = 13
    Italy = 11
    Holland = 8
    USSR = 7
    France = 7
    Belgium = 6
    etc.

    For comparison, the ELO ratings in the 81-83 period, give us this ranking list:
    1) W.Germany
    2) Italy
    3) USSR
    4) England
    5) Poland
    6) Belgium
    7) France
    8) Austria
    + Holland, E.Germany, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Wales & Spain.


    At first look, Spain seems to had too many call-ups. And Poland & Austria missed some players: Mlynarczyk & Koncilia, maybe?
     
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