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The best players of the season 1983/4

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by comme, Nov 18, 2012.

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  1. frasermc

    frasermc Take your flunky and dangle

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    Who set him up for the second mate?

    I can't remember losing to Forest... :whistling: or any English team for that matter. I blank those defeats out of my memory.

    I'm trying to see from the footage who our (Celtic's) fullbacks were. Talk about diving into tackles...
     


  2. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    The second goal was Davenport setting up the Scotsman Colin Walsh. The first was also a Davenport assist after Steve Wigley's wing-play, and Steve Hodge scored.
    :laugh: @ :whistling:
    Interesting that it was an Italian commentary - must have been a round-up of the European games - like I said there is a longer version though if you're interested - then you could borrow the device from Men In Black to erase your memory again!
    I do remember that Chris Smalley went to play for Celtic in the mid-80's (at least I think that was his name - I didn't check and am going from the memories of Forest line-ups on the back of programmes I saw).
    NOTE for anyone who may not know - Programmes refers to match programmes or you could say magazines (I don't know what the culture is in foreign countries with regards to those but in England you could always buy them before the match).
     
  3. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    No, I think it was Mark Smalley and he never played for Celtic (don't know why I associated his name with them - maybe he played against them or something but anyway it's no relevance to this thread as he wasn't a regular Forest player)!

    Puck asked about Van Breukelen for the previous season - perhaps this season is a better bet as he was a regular in the team that made the Uefa Cup semis and came 3rd in Division 1.
     
  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    I have opened a new thread and I was a bit surprised regarding Van Breukelen.

    He was highly rated before he moved to England but in his first season of his return he had difficulties and a low rating. I indeed read now that he was a bit unhappy in England (though had nothing to do with the club! he also wanted to remain the first GK of the national team) and needed time to (mentally) adjust again to the Eredivisie.

    It is of course possible that he still reached a good level for Forest.
     


  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    How accurate do you rate Batty his opinions? His opinions were, how do I put it politely, extravagant at times and deviating from the 'communis opinio'.
     
  6. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    I've established at least 2 of the Peter Davenport goals on the compilation were from 83/84, including this great one away at PSV Eindhoven in the Uefa Cup (another away at West Ham I think - the Trevor Brooking farewell appearance with highlights on Youtube):

    Davenport's other goal in Europe was in the home game with PSV. I don't know Puck whether you have access to any reports of those 2 games and any reference to the performances of Davenport or Van Breukelen?

    The more I think about it the more I do feel Davenport would be worth inclusion, firstly with this his best season considering form in Europe etc as well as domestically, and secondly because I think he was a better player all round at his best than some like Kieft, Blissett, Hrubesch that have been included for other seasons (though I appreciate that goal totals can be persuasive and that goal poachers can be very useful even if they are just finishing off others good play - as I said Davenport was a good finisher who could score individual goals as shown, run through onto through passes very well I remember too but I wouldn't say he had the prolific instincts of a Gerd Muller type or Gary Lineker type or Romario type).
     
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Hrubesch was though feared for his physical prowess; the best markers had a hard job against him. He was a tank. Hrubesch also played in Belgian league by the way (a bit past his prime perhaps) and did not make a big impact at all (lower ratio as in the Bundesliga including his last 1982/1983 season in the Bundesliga). That sometimes happens, players struggle in a different league; see the aforementioned Hysen and Molby as well.

    Kieft is IMO overrated in comme his list for 1981/82 season when he won the Golden Boot (Van Basten in 1983/84 was way better). Footballing wise Kieft was certainly a fair bit better in the 1982/83 season but without scoring the goals. However, as said before, the rise of Van Basten was the nail in his coffin.

    When Kieft returned to PSV in the late 80s he formed a good combination with Romario. Kieft was the target-man and also good through-balls; he became an all-round striker/forward. Won headers, made off the shoulder deep runs, dummy runs, and sent passes and assists to Romario. I mean this seriously. Was a great complementary for the shorter, more explosive and more individualistic Romario. Romario himself appreciated Kieft very much too until he made enemies with him too. He was around that time much more than just the man of the tap-ins, one on ones or a 'leaning tower' who headed balls to goal or to his teammates.

    Davenport looks good in the videos you posted but don't know much about consistency. I will let you know how he was rated in the Dutch press vs PSV.
     
  8. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    Well, he got to see a huge amount of football across many years. He was writing for World Soccer from it's birth in October 1960 until some time in the early-mid 90s. So from that perspective his opinions were well based.

    However, and Batty himself made this very clear on many occasions, the players he admired were those who were graceful, skillful and clever. He placed technique well above athleticism and he prized imagination.

    He basically liked attacking midfielders and in his team of the year he attempted to include as many as possible. He included Alain Giresse at left-back and right-back in two separate years just to make space for more midfielders. He recognised that this was not a practical team that could play well together.

    He also, as was natural at the time, heavily moved by individual games he saw. So for instance Oganesian played extremely well against England in a friendly in June 1984 and that shaped Batty's opinion of him. Morten Olsen played very well in the UEFA Cup against Spurs in 1984 and that led Batty to regard him as the best Libero in the world at the time. In an era where it wasn't possible to watch international players on a regular basis that's understandable.

    Overall I'd take his opinions with a heavy dose of salt, but they do give an extra bit of information to base these teams on.
     
  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    OK, essentially I have the same view.

    Luckily in case of Olsen we have some more information to form an opinion about (esp. in terms of level of consistency throughout a season).

    What I have about Oganesian is fragmented.
     
  10. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    Thanks, yeah that'll be good if you can find something. That was the season he was really breaking through as a star Forest player I think including a goal vs Man Utd who were a couple of years later to buy him (he was a Man Utd fan, but overall his stint there was not as impressive as his Forest form - less of a difference than with Garry Birtles who famously struggled at Man Utd a few years earlier before going back to Forest but still a clear difference I think). Davenport played one game for England, assisting Gary Lineker's first England goal in 1985:


    Yeah I like the inclusion of Kieft but in the season mentioned I do think Cruyff helped him score a lot of goals as well as Jesper Olsen and the rest. Maybe there is a case for including him again then when he played alongside Romario. I also understand Hrubesch's inclusion as he made a mark with Germany as well as Hamburg - I saw a highlights video of a game they won scoring 5 in Europe IIRC recently and he scored a couple of towering headers while Keegan instigated a couple of moves leading to goals but didn't score and Kaltz scored a great goal from the edge of the box. As comme pointed out Blissett's form at Watford was notable too, so I was just using those examples to further Davenport's case not to omit them. Davenport was Forest's top scorer in a few seasons around that time but a ratio of 1 in 2 is not a stand-out figure although pretty substantial in a top league in the mid 80's I think - the quality of some of the goals and the assists/team-play/pace/ability to turn and run with the ball etc enhance his case in my view. btw, I remember Metgod scored free-kicks in further seasons including one I saw live vs Tottenham and carried on playing well mostly in midfield but sometimes in defence, but the next season 84/85 was when he scored perhaps his two most notable free-kicks and made his mark as a Forest player/cult hero so I think that will be his best case for an inclusion while at Forest.
     
  11. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    This is how Hrubesch developed:

    His peak in terms of scoring was 1981/82 when he became Bundesliga topscorer with 27 goals.
    Also the 1982/83 season was strong with 18 goals (between 78-81 he had respectively 13, 21 and 17 goals).

    He moved to Standard Liege in the summer of 1983. It was the club that became complicit in a bribery scandal a year later. It did not help his tally however: 9 goals (23 aps) in 83/84 and 8 goals (20 aps) a year later. Both in terms of ratio and absolute goal tally it wasn't great. Ceulemans, Elkjaer, Vandenbergh, Claesen, Degryse, Scifo to name a few managed to have a better ratio.

    Things like that sometimes happened in those days. Nobody had expected here that Molby became a great player at Liverpool back in 1983.
     
  12. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    How many goals did Davenport score in 1983/4 and 1984/5?
     
  13. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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  14. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    As for my other suggestion Michael Laudrup, I know comme goes by consistency and form irrespective of inherant quality of the player, so I think perhaps 84/85 might be a season where he might be left out. Considering performances for Denmark (not sure how relevant), msioux's Serie A ratings (worse in 84/85 and good in surrounding seasons with the possibility he was suffering slightly in terms of consistency while starring for Lazio/Juventus still anyway) I would still favour including him in 83/84 as well as certainly 85/86 when he starred as Juventus won Serie A and the Intercontinental Cup.

    I've tried to be unbiased with both Laudrup and Forest player Davenport :laugh:, but I do think they would both fit an inclusion in 83/84 even if only 1 star (I don't think Davenport should have more than this anyway really).
     
  15. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    Confirmation in case the source goes offline - it shows the line-ups and scorers in all games Forest played btw:

    83/84 - 15 incl 2 penalties in the league, in 33 apps including 1 as sub vs Tottenham which I think may have been the first game I went to actually - Frans Thijssen was playing I notice but I do remember a little more of Davenport maybe from more than one game around that time - I remember he was a fans favourite (fans around me saying "Go on Peter" etc when he was played through on goal which like I say he was quite a bit due to his pace, next-door neighbours talking about him etc). 2 in 9 including one sub appearance in the Uefa Cup to make a total of 17 goals for the season in all competitions. At least two assists vs Celtic in Europe but not sure how many assists over the season.

    84/85 - 16 in 35 apps including 4 penalties in the league and one goal in FA Cup to make a total of 17 goals again.
     
    comme repped this.
  16. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    Was he an out and out striker or more of a forward?
     
  17. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    Pretty much in between I think. He was mobile and with good touch, dribbling ability and could pull out wide and be effective etc and he could pass very intelligently and accuractely (I think the videos I posted show this pretty well) but I wouldn't call him a support striker as he didn't really hang back behind the other striker and play as a 'number 10' although that was normally his number. As with Crooks and Archibald at Tottenham for example, Forest tended to play with two general strikers - I think an ageing Garry Birtles would have been acting more like the target centre-forward in 83/84 while Davenport could be deemed a goal-scoring inside-forward I guess but later he played alongside Nigel Clough. If making him a forward gets him in then maybe I should say that's the better classification:laugh: but he wasn't really akin to Kenny Dalglish and if Marco Van Basten is in the strikers category perhaps Davenport should be as well in all honesty. It's just that he had those attributes that not all out-and-out strikers have that gave him more to his game. Classifying him as a forward wouldn't be outrageous...but again Shevchenko would be a striker I guess and I wouldn't differenciate Davenport's role too much from his at Kiev and in his early Milan days for example.
     
    frasermc repped this.
  18. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    Ok, I'll let him in as a forward ;) But just this once!!

    Joking aside he does seem a reasonable candidate for 1983/4.
     
  19. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    Thanks! No, I wouldn't have recommended him if I didn't think it seemed reasonable myself so good choice I believe. I found the other goal for Forest in this game at about 6 mins and he gets a pre-assist:

    I do think 83/84 is the best choice. I did find a game vs Aston Villa where he scores 2 including a penalty in 84/85 and Metgod gets an assist and another great free-kick btw, but 83/84 seems to be when Davenport was most on form and did very well in Europe with those notable moments too.
    Just to prove my neutrality lol, I'm not sure whether Viv Anderson if definately worth his place this season or not but I wouldn't necessarily suggest taking him out. He still got a move to Arsenal then to Man Utd, but I feel his best form was probably in the late 70's with Forest.

    I haven't thought of any more players as yet - I thought about Ronnie Whelan but I don't have any source to say 83/84 was particularly a stand-out year for him - he broke through impressively in earlier years actually then was a fixture through till the mid-80's and beyond - Molby as Puck mentioned would be a candidate when at Liverpool and perhaps 85/86 would be a season where both Molby and Whelan might get in the list...?

    Heinz Hermann was Swiss Footballer of the Year in 83/84 so possibly a decent year to select him but it might need more investigation. I remember he was in your 100 Player World Soccer list for 1991 but his best years seem to have been earlier.
     
  20. frasermc

    frasermc Take your flunky and dangle

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    PDG1978,

    I've read the report on the 2-1 match and it says the first goal was created by a Wigley cross from the right wing.

    Also, you have to love Brian Clough. Apparently he took the players to then Celtic manager Davie Hay's pub in Paisley for a drink on the afternoon of the game.

    Brilliant stuff.
     
  21. frasermc

    frasermc Take your flunky and dangle

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    To join in with the other vids below is the Celtic - Sporting Lisbon match from Nov '83 when we came behind from a 2-0 deficit in the first leg to win 5-0 at home in the second leg.

    The video is just the first half highlights. McLair scores the 3rd goal around the 10:00 mark of the video. Also, just after the 5:00 mark you'll see him peel off the shoulder of the last man to latch onto a McGrain through ball.

    What is clearly evident in these highlights is how important Tommy Burns was to the team in midfield and how prominent a young man by the name of Paul McStay was to become.

     
  22. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    Yeah Wigley was the number 7 who crossed the ball in for Davenport to play Hodge in. Did you see that Clough comment on Youtube or elsewhere? I think on Youtube somebody said he didn't settle his bill for the drinks either!:laugh:.

    I also noticed, regarding your next post, McStay was in the midfield and already making some nice passes and playing in the centre when I had a look at the start of the longer highlights (Davenport also twists and turns himself into position for a chance early on but the goalie saves and Birtles hits the outside of the net with the rebound) - I didn't watch all of it though. Also, that commentary is Scottish not Italian!
     
  23. frasermc

    frasermc Take your flunky and dangle

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    I saw it in an article pertaining to the match. Sounds like Clough through and through. :thumbsup:


    I'm sure McStay will come into the reckoning later in this decade. If not, I'll be making a strong case for his inclusion. ;)
     
  24. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    Yeah McStay made comme's top 100 X of all time lists, so I wouldn't be surprised to see his name for a season such as 87/88 (could be wrong about that but you'll be able to guide him I'm sure) without any prompting.

    Maybe Davenport's drunken legs fooled McGrain on the touchline, or maybe he responds well to alcohol:laugh:.
     
  25. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Hello PDG,

    I looked quickly for how Davenport was rated vs PSV.

    It indeed said he was effective but it also said that he wasn't a first choice??? Some reports say that he took the place of Birtles (or whoever) who was injured at that time.

    Reports also say that PSV played a bit naive in second leg and referee had an influence in the first leg of the tie with giving penalty kicks. Referee was a West-German so that was also easy to criticize ;) In those days the feeling existed at occasions that the Germans and English formed a silent pact.

    PSV needed to attack in second leg and that was punished. In first leg Nottingham played defensive too the reports say but PSV player Valke used a proverb to express his thoughts. The proverb he used basically means that PSV met tactics which they themselves applied in the league.

    Nottingham won deserved in the second leg but referee got huge criticism for his PK-calls in the first game.

    Reports do mention the positive contribution of Davenport but since when exactly was he a starter? Reports state that he was a "wonder that fell out of the sky" as we say it here.

    Van Breukelen played good too the reports said, without major flaws (can you confirm this?).
     
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