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The best players of the season 1983/4

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by comme, Nov 18, 2012.

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  1. frasermc

    frasermc Take your flunky and dangle

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    PuckVanHeel

    Reports stated that Celtic were done out of 2x penalties in our match against Nottingham Forest as well!! All true.

    Shocking the lengths the referees will bend to help a legend such as Brian Clough... :eek:
     


  2. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    He certainly will be. A player I rated very highly indeed.
     
  3. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    On a side note, I've always excluded major tournaments from my thoughts in relation to this. Would anyone be interested in lending their thought to the best players of the Euros and World Cups for the eighties onwards?

    Should be easier than the seasons to do.
     
  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    PDG posted video on previous page.

    In all fairness, I do think it was a penalty call but press voices argued that the Brits liked to play a physical game in general so in no way was that a PK. It was not congruent with how the referee acted in the rest of the match (lots of physical contact and so on).

    Rumors around Clough existed too indeed but I thought 'I will not bother PDG with it'.
     


  5. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    According to this:
    http://www.bridportred.com/1980s/1983-1984/1983-1984 results & teams.htm
    Davenport had been in the line-up early in the season but it seems for a few games Wallace (a million pound signing that didn't really work out though he was Forest's top scorer once I think) had played in attack with Birtles. Birtles was out of the line-up for the PSV game but I don't know whether Wallace would have missed out otherwise. Davenport was certainly a first choice from that point onwards though. I could see why he wouldn't be well known and would seem like "a wonder fallen out of the sky" though. I don't have a report about Van Breukelen's performance in the game.
     
    PuckVanHeel repped this.
  6. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    Thanks for looking the reports up btw Puck :thumbsup:.
     
  7. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    Yeah that sounds good - off the top of my head Schuster, Ceulemans for Euro 80 and Littbarski, Giresse for WC 82 could get top ratings perhaps....Zico, Socrates and Falcao would be there along with Paolo Rossi, Boniek...I'm sure there'll be posters with good info about the top Algerians etc. Trevor Francis did ok for England I think and Bryan Robson of course.
     
  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    If you can read my language I can send them too ;)

    But yes, Davenport made an impression. Breukelen was described as "solid".
     
  9. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    I could put it through the translator but I think you are a better translator actually! Was HvB the number 1 Dutch International goalie at the time (I read he only got 3 caps while at Forest over the 2 years but I know he was playing before then eg against France when Platini scored the World Cup qualification clinching free-kick in Paris in 1981)?
     
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    For what it is worth: the editor of the major newspaper ('De Telegraaf') over here named a few names that surprised or struck the eye at euro84: Platini himself surprised, Scifo, Giresse, Tigana, Jordao, Chalana, Larsen, Morten Olsen and Arnesen were rated highly.

    NT coach made many changes during these years. Also Schrijvers and Edward Metgod was used. Many found it strange that Van Breukelen returned after a few caps and immediately wore the armband after Wijnstekers fell out with an injury. Van Breukelen missed also a few caps with an injury.
     
  11. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    Yeah those names seem about right for Euro '84, particularly Platini, Tigana and Chalana. Tigana also did very well at WC 82 once he got in the team IMO but Euro '84 was great for him. I think comme is well versed on him and that team as he did a nice write-up about them before. Interesting about Scifo who we've obviously discussed - I'd not known much about how he played at Euro '84 but knew that he was one of the youngsters involved (like Stojkovic, Hagi, Butragueno was in the Spain squad, Laudrup was still youngish).

    Yeah Van Breukelen was injured during 82/83 so probably missed some Internationals then. Apparently he was carried off the pitch by fans after his last appearance in 83/84 - I also read that Dutch keeper Hans Segers who went on to play for Forest (mainly he was number 2 to Steve Sutton from 84/85 I think) was recommended by Van Bruekelen.
     
  12. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    Maybe Tibor Nyilasi in his first season in Austria could be considered:
    http://lvironpigs.wordpress.com/2010/08/11/tibor-nyilasi-not-forgotten/
    http://www.austria-archiv.at/spieler.php?Spieler_ID=132
    Translation via Bing of second link:
    "In the portrait: Tibor Nyilasi, born on January 18, 1955, actually comes from Lake Balaton. His family soon relocated to the capital of Hungary and the young Tibor came to Ferencváros. His first ever Championship appearance was on May 14, 1973, which lasted for 20 minutes. One of our all-time bests knew him already - Schneckerl Prohaska. On April 29, 1973, met the youth teams of Hungary and Austria in the NEP Stadium. Unfortunately we went down 3-0, but a certain Mr Nyilasi scoring one goal despite security of the already deceased Bruno Pezzay.

    But at the latest on October 14, 1976, than the 1.89 m large Nyilasi with two Kopfballtoren in the 3rd or 7th minute virtually Austria's defeat sealed (result 2: 4) everyone in Austria knew him. In his twelve-year career, Tibor Nyilasi came to 70 team games, 12 league titles, 3 Cup victories and a participation in a European Cup final. He made his first team game in 1975, which was won 2-1 against the Iran.

    Well, and in the summer of 1983, it was as far as... Tibor Nyilasi changes for 6.5 million shillings to the Viennese violet. And as we know the gangly-Hungarian had an incredible goal instinct and was top scorer in Austria right off the bat. Now was Tibor international spotlight. The French top Club Bordoux Nyilasi offered a quote where he double more than that as it deserves to be in Vienna. But Tibor Nyilasi remained the violet, which should be not always Yes in the until now 87-year history of the Vienna Austria... The opponents were full of praise for example rapid coach and former Austrianer Vlatko Markovic "My God, football is as easy if you look to Tibor Nyilasi!" And that says it all about the style of our Tibor probably. With two legs technically perfect, little spektakulär-sometimes even drowsiness a but more efficient. During his time in Vienna, he learned almost accent German. Tibor much jubilation and joy has prepared us, but one will probably never forget football Austria him when he missed a huge opportunity in the game against Holland alone in front of the goalkeeper and therefore lost Hungary 0-1. It was then Austria's last chance at a Championship.

    His first League match for the Viennese violet played on the 20.8.1983 against Neusiedl am See Tibor Nyilasi. He played his last of a total 121 MS games for Austria against Admira Wacker on the 14.5.1988. He played in 14 Cupspielen, 10 times in the Masters Cup and just as often in the UEFA Cup for the purple. In all of these games, he scored 111 goals, of which 81 in the Championship."

    Nyilasi did score two against Inter Milan as the Austrian side progressed in the Uefa Cup in the 3rd round.
    I assume Polster and also another Hungarian Detari would fit better in later seasons.
     
  13. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member

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  14. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    Thanks:thumbsup:.
    I was wondering who was Player of the Year in Austria that year - Prohaska definately seems worth his place then - any details about his role so that comme can establish whether AM is the best category or whether CM might be better (I think playing as a playmaking centre midfielder who gets forward is enough to make him an AM ie he doesn't need to be in a Zico role, but I guess there's a chance he could've played more like Pirlo in his latter years mainly sitting deep)?

    Good info about Nyilasi's goals too and his Uefa Cup top scorer achievment, and the UEFA rating for Austria for the season. Nyilasi also scored against Tottenham then although it looks like the tie had gone by then in fairness (if I read it right it was probably the equaliser for a 2-2 draw at home having lost 2-0 away).

    Nyilasi would be a forward I believe (he's one of the players I've seen a little of and heard/read a little more of and I know he was apart from Detari the last world-renowned Hungarian - my understanding was that he could play as forward and also AM/possibly winger - he'd be past his very best by '83 I think but he went to Austria earlier in his career than for example Savicevic and like you say to a league with a better rating/competitiveness at the time - one of the links I found also mentions Bordeaux wanted to buy him from Austria Vienna still too - a positive effect on Polster's form/goals is mentioned too but relating to the following seasons when Polster was top scorer).
     
  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    This was the team of the tournament after the group stage of a association of newspapers. I.e. a few major major newspapers from a few countries (I recognize a Dutch, Belgian, French, Spanish paper) made a vote and this was the result:

    Schumacher (West-Germany); Morten Olsen (Denmark), Bossis (France), Maceda (Spain); Giresse (France), Tigana (France), Platini (France), Bertelsen (Denmark), Ceulemans (Belgium); Elkjaer-Larsen (Denmark), Santilliana (Spain)

    The French newspaper L'Equipe seized the tournament to come with a big coverage. One of the things they did was installing a panel from which an average grade was calculated. Example: in the 5:0 win of France against Belgium Platini got a 8.92; Giresse a 9 precise and Tigana a 9.07.

    The press here made a joke of their final ranking where Chalana with a 8.20 had a higher rating as Platini with a 8.02 over a whole tournament.

    The Dutch word for sentimental nationalism is 'chauvinisme' which is lent from a French word and a proverb hence says "chauvinisme is a French expression". So that Chalana received a higher rating was a surprise; in that spirit some jokes were made.

    Based on their ratings, they made their team after the knock-out rounds and final was played:

    Schumacher (West-Germany); Rednic (Romania), Maceda (Spain), Bossis (France), Domergue (France); Tigana (France), Platini (France), Fernandez (France), Chalana (Portugal); Elkjaer-Larsen (Denmark), Santilliana (Spain)

    Highest rated GK: Schumacher 8.01
    Highest rated CF: Elkjaer 8.10
    Highest rated DM: Tigana 8.13
    Highest rated AM: Chalana 8.20

    I only don't see the ratings of defenders. But I was able to verify that these ratings and team was correct.

    At the end of the tournament a vote across European journalists (ESM?) took place:

    1. Platini
    2. Elkjaer-Larsen
    3. Tigana
     
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  16. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member

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    I rather wouldn't include him by the way.
    Yes he scored against Inter & Tottenham, but in my opinion the quality of the teams he faced weekly is too low to consider him 'International Class'. The depth in Austrian Bundesliga suffers dramatically if you go past the 2-3 biggest teams. When you have 16 teams in the 1. Divsion, in a country which has one big city you gonna end up with 50% country village sides in the top flight.
    I'd do an exception for Prohaska, because he proved himself playing in a competitive league.

    Maybe I'm a bit too harsh and this was common place in other leagues as well.
     
  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Nylasis scored 9 goals in 8 UEFA Cup games in 83/84.

    2 goals in 6 games in 84/85 (European Cup)

    1 in 4 in 85/86 (European Cup)

    did not play in 86/87

    0 in 2 in 86/87 (UEFA Cup)


    1983/1984 does seem sort of a stand-out year for him.

    What did happen with topscorers from various countries, be it from England, Italy, France, Portugal or Netherlands is that they suddenly stopped with scoring in European competitions (at least in some of their seasons; not all seasons). That could happen.

    In Nyalisi his case it speaks for him that he also scored in European competitions.
     
  18. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member

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    You need to consider that he was already 29 old in 83/84, so it's expected that his goalscoring goes down sooner or later. But that's not really important as I said earlier you have to look at his goalscoring breakdown.
    5 of his goals came against Luxembourg 3rd placed Aris Bonneweg which makes his stats look more outstanding than they actually were.
     
  19. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    Yeah, it's a bit of a long-shot on my part - just searching around for possible additions to comme's list. If he was going to be in the list at any point though (while in Austria I mean not if comme goes back before 1980/81) 83/84 seems to stand out as the best choice. The 1 star rating is 'national class' I think so he's probably a maybe I guess:unsure::laugh:.
     
  20. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    Interesting info, thanks :thumbsup:.
    I could understand why Chalana would come to the fore more after the knock-out games. Tigana too, although he was clearly exceptional in the group games too then including especially the Belgium game. Maybe Platini's rating on an average basis would not be as high as somebody looking at the tournament as a whole and considering he kept on producing the goals all the way through. It's hard not to give him player of the tournament I think, although in some aspects of his game it probably wasn't his career-best form partly because he played a very attacking role mostly and wasn't playing so much as a creator.
     
  21. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    I was just PM'ing fraser about the Celtic-Forest game and this video was playing at the same time:


    And I concluded the message with this, as Youtube was open while I typed:
    "Video been playing while I've been typing and noticed:
    a) Davenport twist and turn and shot saved early on, then Birtles hit side netting with rebound as mentioned to you before I think.
    b) Davenport could have had another assist early but Wigley miscued.
    c) Van Breukelen excellent save at 6:25 (commentator says brilliant save in fact)
    d) Soon after 7 mins, erm yes McStay brought down by Hart surely! About as much a penalty as the Forest one away to PSV, IMO."
     
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    How was you able to watch and type at the same time? Just open another window or so?

    Anyhow, to confirm something: despite the fact that Breukelen took over the armband in one national team game after captain Wijnstekers fell out, he indeed wasn't the solid first choice any more of the NT coach.

    One of the reasons he returned to Holland was that he wanted to stay in sight for the national team.

    To be fair McStay was clearly pulled away in that scene. Different scene as the one here after 2:00.
    !
    That was more like a push rather than a pull.

    Good post but I tried to make the point that various goal scoring threats, even from the so called top leagues, scored lousy numbers in European competitions (in some seasons at least). Nyalasi at least did not suffer from that curse.
    I can understand your point about the Luxembourg opponent.
     
  23. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    Yes, I opened another window for Youtube although I had the Big Soccer window maximised and could just hear the commentary from the Celtic-Forest game while I typed - so in effect I had a quick look at anything that sounded interesting...
    I thought you'd like the Van Breukelen save (actually on his best side I guess; he took goal-kicks left-footed although I suppose that doesn't mean he was left-handed too or better diving left than right for sure...)!
     
  24. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

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    Also, from fraser's reply for especially Puck plus maybe comme if Van Breukelen is in contention for a spot in the list:
    "Apparently Van Breukelen tips a Tommy Burns shot onto the bar in the 72nd min which is described as a terrific save in the match report"
     
  25. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    I would include Nyilasi.

    Polster and Detari for the following season I think.
     
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