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The best players of the season 1986-7

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by comme, Jan 30, 2013.

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  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Why is it difficult to compare the two?

    A player like Lineker was simply not very suitable for such a playing system. In the transition to the desired playing style Salinas was used. Think btw that Sanchez could in theory play like Salinas did.
     


  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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  3. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    Just that I'd struggle to claim one was categorically better than the other.

    Lineker excelled at every club he played for and also was outstanding for England.

    Sanchez was phenomenal at Real Madrid, but his international career was far less impressive.

    I don't see either of them as significantly better than Rush, Papin or Careca.

    Ok. Personally I think that Lineker could have played in that team, albeit in a different way. Lineker ahead of Laudrup, combined with the high defensive line used by many Spanish teams at the time would have meant a ton of goals.
     
  4. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

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    According those two sources: Maradona Serie-A rating was phenomenal class, meanwhile Platini was bonderline world/intl. class.
    But obviously Platini had a phenomenal Euro who can give an upper level to phen./world class.
    I don't about other NT matches and club competition, but i'm guess that in both Platini has the edge.
    btw, a very close race between both, performing way better than the rest.

    The Serie-A season for Maradona seems another wc season according those ratings. And i personally doubt to another player having a league's performance above wc season (like Maradona did in 84/85)
    But considering his phenomenon performances in the WC. He clearly outclassed any other player in the 1985/86 season, imho. Their closest competition had a wc performance at best in Mexico '86 and any of them were the other top-5 players, IMHO.

    Maradona's season seems bonderline world/intl. class level in Serie-A for 1986/87.
    I don't know for CL or NT friendlies. But for Copa America he performed good to very good.
    Others like Valderrama, condor Rojas eclipsed Maradona's performances, imo.
     


  5. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member

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    @msioux75: comme doesn't consider WC/Euro performance for his list.
     
  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    To say that he excelled at Barcelona is quite a stretch though in some 1980s seasons 20 goals had been sufficient for the topscorer title (in five to be precise).

    Way too easy, with which greats did he play together?

    I would rank Sanchez and Papin at top.

    Yes, he could have played in that team with vastly different tactics. What makes you think that Spanish teams used a high line? Of which general tactical 'approach' or 'hype' was that a part? Why did they do that?
    For example, looking at which players ended high in the topscorer charts I don't think Spanish teams used an extremely high line for that time. Hugo Sanchez himself is a good example (had not a superb pace or acceleration or so).
    If you say that all teams used generally a higher line as today (partially due to different offside law) then I agree.
     
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Do you have ratings or all star teams for that Copa America? I have seen some but that are Argentinian sources (perhaps a bit colored).

    For his 1986-87 season, I think he had some problems, with an illegitimate child for example. I think his weight problems worsened and he himself was not happy with his performances (expressed a few times in the season).
    Maybe still the best.

    Maybe a bit like Zidane at Real Madrid?
     
  8. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    Basically in the two seasons that he was given a chance to play as a striker he averaged 18 goals a season. I think that is a pretty handy record.

    That's kind of irrelevant to my point. His record is very average given that Mexico play a lot of games against minnow opposition and got to plays as hosts in 1986.

    Like I say I can see multiple orderings of that cohort. I also think that had Ian Rush gone to Spain rather than Italy he would have got on better.

    Just what I saw. Lineker was absolutely rapid (as was Rush). I just think that Cruyff inexplicably took against him and then used his inability to play on the wing as an excuse to get rid of him.
     
  9. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    Worth just pointing out in terms of the attacks they played with:

    Real Madrid 1986-8 179 goals Sanchez 63 - 35%
    Barcelona 1986-8 112 goals Lineker 36 - 32%

    Obviously better, but underlines that he was playing in a significantly superior attacking line up.
     
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Not better than, for example, Baltazar for relative minnow Atletico Madrid.

    Some foreigners did succeed in Italy though, sometimes even in the very first season they managed to produce fine performances. Why was Italy not suitable for his game?

    By your own standards here, I don't see multiple orderings of that cohort. Papin his international and European goalscoring record easily blows away the one of Ian Rush. And has the superior individual accolades.

    This sounds like a lack of professional attitude. For what reason had Cruyff a personal dislike against him?

    One final thing, Laudrup arrived on the moment Lineker left. You also hypothyroid about a possible understanding with Koeman, well, Primera Division only started to allow three foreigners in 1990-91. That is when speedy Stoichkov was bought (a better player as Lineker).

    This stat supports the point I made.

    I'd say too that Sanchez was not only an excellent goalscorer (and scorer of fantastic goals), or "predator", but also an excellent targetman as described literally in the link below by one of your favorite journalists. As such he had an asset that cannot be measured with goals.
    http://inbedwithmaradona.com/retro/2012/8/16/real-madrid-toshacks-greatest-challenge.html
     
  11. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member

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    It was a bad period to join Juventus for sure. They lost Platini and Boniek and aquired a few new players.
     
  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Euro84 was strictly seen part of 83/84 season, not 84/85.

    His 83/84 season is the highest rated average by Gazzetta dello Sport in their history. Combined with other ratings, other accounts/quotes and his goalscoring stats I think this was his very best season for Juventus.

    But as said before, ratings are a bit tricky. Standards can change for example (nowadays they rate attackers a bit higher as before, so that defenders do not come 'automatically' on top).
    Modern day example is Iniesta, who was in past season quite close to Messi in the ratings. And that in an stat-friendly era (raters also look at on-screen stats).
     
  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    That is true although Juventus wasn't unhappy with departure of Boniek (he had the image of playing a lot better at midweek).
    Also the Italian players were fading away like Scirea, Cabrini and so on.

    Laudrup suffered from this too. Because only two/three foreigners were allowed at that time, foreign players were happy if they could get a spot, even at 'small' and declining clubs (in most cases). Limitation of foreigners limited the options available.

    Same happened when Bergkamp moved to Italy. Even though Internazionale promised to play differently and more fluid/attacking, it was also the case that not much choice was available (Barcelona was the other major candidate but just like predecessor Van Basten he said "no" to playing in Spain).
     
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Remembered an earlier verdict of yours:
    http://www.xtratime.org/forum/showpost.php?p=9241268&postcount=134

    Did you change your view a bit in the meantime?
     
  15. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member

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    Here's EL Grafico's team:
    [​IMG]
     
    msioux75 repped this.
  16. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member

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    It must be noted that most players played only 2 matches and that Valderrama was chosen as their best player of the tournament.
     
  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Do you maybe know the full ratings? And the assists? Maradona had anyway 3 goals (1PK) in 4 games and if I'm correct also one assist in the third-place match.
     
  18. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

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    Considering that one year ago, Maradona performed arguably the best WC performance ever. Many considered that he could lead the argies to win CA after 20 years and mainly with a superb performance.
    But in any match he played better than 7 out of 10, imho.
    So, he was good (w/good stats like you said), but far from having an "out of this world" performance like anyone can expect from a very ATG in his prime.
     
  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    ELO rank of opponents faced was (June-July 1987):

    Peru: 47 - 1 goals, no assist
    Ecuador: 71 - 2 goals (1PK), no assist
    Uruguay: 23
    Colombia: 32 - 1 assist??

    Video compilation of last two games is available on YT.

    Show Spoiler



    Assist in third-place game isn't visible very well. Commentator mentions Ruggeri but I think it was Maradona.
     
  20. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member

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    He played that tournament with tendinitis and was coming from a season packed with injuries. Also, Argentina were missing several key players from WC86.
     
  21. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member

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    The corner kick was taken by Maradona.
     
  22. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member

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    I'm missing some edition, so I do not have every match rating. He had a hand in 4 out of 5 goals for the Argentinians.
     
  23. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

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    Fair comments mate.
    btw, I wasn't trying to be disrespectful with Maradona, a real All-Time Great ;)
     
  24. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member

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    Just to clarify: I got that info about the tendinitis that he was suffering (a similar case which hampered Platini at WC86) from the Argentinian articles that I read from that era. That 86/87 season in Italy was considered to have had a toll on his body - I don't think he was in the best shape as he was in 85/86.
     
  25. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Was it headed through to Caniggia (who had #3) or not? Anyhow, he either had the pre-assist or assist.

    I read some more things: problems with a child, a club who thought that he was feigning injuries (anyway communicated that not much was going on and did not give much confidence), a demand that his brother Hugo should be allowed in and some issues with the contract-extension. What do you know about it?
     
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