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The best players of the season 1986-7

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by comme, Jan 30, 2013.

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  1. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't think anyone would deny that Baltazar did exceptionally well at Atleti.

    If you don't rate Lineker, how come he performed so well for Leicester, Everton, Spurs and England as well as in his first season in Barcelona?

    Rush was excellent at exploiting the space in behind defences. At Liverpool a large number of his goals were scored through running on to balls over the top or in behind played by Kenny Dalglish. In Italy there was very little of that space because of the defensive nature of the game.

    It's worth noting that Rush actually didn't do that badly in Italy. He scored 13 goals in 40 games in all competitions, which while unspectacular was far from terrible. He was the 13th top scorer in Serie A in his season there for a team who were a shadow of their former selves. That was a major disappointment based on his Liverpool form but as time goes on the magnitude of his failure grows.

    Van Basten scored at a similar rate in Serie A in the 1987-8 season.

    In terms of individual awards he really doesn't. Papin won the Ballon d'Or in 1991 while Rush finished fourth after people that had played at Euro 84. Swap the seasons around and Rush wins the Ballon d'Or while Papin finishes fourth (at best).

    Meanwhile in international terms Rush played for Wales and is the all time top goalscorer. Papin had the luxury of playing for France and despite that never set the world on fire.

    Rush scored more goals for Liverpool alone than Papin scored in his entire career.

    God knows. Cruyff (while a great player and manager) is certainly known for his strong opinions.

    Ask yourself, you have arguably the best striker in the world at your disposal (112 goals in his last 5 top flight seasons, 26 goals in 3 years at international level), he is a noted penalty area specialist. Why would you play him on the wing?

    Yes, I'm talking in the future.

    It certainly supports the fact that he had a markedly superior set of players around him.
     


  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    This is besides the point. Players like Baltazar, Aldridge, Salinas, Polster, Valdano did equally well or better for a similar/better amount of seasons (some for lesser sides) while neither of them was known as a very elite player ("best striker in the world").

    Please not this BS

    11 games, 7 as sub thanks to injuries. 3 goals, two of them very important near the end of the season although the one against Napoli was a simple tap-in, the other one a long-range strike in a meager 1:0 win(Milan won scudetto).
    In Europe Milan scored a meager 3 goals. He played in three of the four games and was involved in two of the three goals.

    Not a comparable situation.

    How is this certain? It is not like that every European Cup winner won the Ballon d'Or.

    Rush was apparently so impressive that Onze Mondial did not include him in their 1983-1984 team and the consulted journalists preferred a Rummenigge-Elkjaer combination.
    [if you know other votes or teams that is fine to hear]

    If I raise that Sanchez played with Mexican team-mates which probably few Europeans remember or know by hard it is irrelevant and now playing for Wales is an excuse?

    And despite that he played for a long time in his career for dominant Liverpool in their pump, Papin his European Cup record is better. 39 goals in 59 games over all competitions, 28 in 37 in European Cup/Champions League - for various clubs. Rush had 21 in 42 overall and 14 in 26 matches in European Cup.

    Also that Sanchez had a greater share in all goals too and IMO he had also some other valuable attributes besides his goals.


    Will make a more thorough reply about Lineker too.
     
  3. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    Which of those players had scored 20+ in each of their previous three seasons? Which of them had been World Cup topscorer?

    Moreover, what is the point that you are trying to make?

    It's not certain. But by claiming that Papin's individual awards are more impressive you need to at least look at the context. The fact that one was up against a number of players from the Euros, while the other was up against a number of Yugoslav players who split the vote and handed Papin the win by default.

    Do you think that Rummnigge had a better 1983-4 than Ian Rush? Answer that and then tell me how reliable that poll is.

    Who were they playing against? Look at Wales fixtures and compare them with Mexico's.

    One of the two is all time top goalscorer for his national team, the other is sixth on the list, despite Mexico not being renowned for the prowess of its frontmen.

    All things being equal, would you expect someone to score more goals for Mexico, France or Wales?

    Because poor old Papin had to make do with playing for Tapie's Marseille, AC Milan and Bayern Munich?
     
  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Past performances are irrelevant for the achievements and performances in Spain. Or how Sanchez outperformed Lineker.

    I think it is plain obvious. I know this is something you regularly do.

    Does not ring a bell to me. Papin had 26 first place votes, Savicevic 2 and Lineker 1 (probably by a homie). He was also the only player who received votes from all 29 journalists, with one third-place vote being the lowest. No other player came close (Matthaus, obviously from a fancied nation, received votes from 16 journalists).

    You also made a big deal about Papin his record for France, he "never set the world on fire" for his home country. Reality is that only one post-1960 French player had a higher ratio as him, Michel Platini (0.55 vs 0.57 - among players with more than 10 goals).

    The 1992euro qualifiers also helped him to win the 1991 vote btw.

    No I don't think it was a categorically better season (or year). Rummenigge was overall a better player though with wider skillset.

    Do you have counter proof instead of pointing out that it is an unreliable poll? Every poll has a flaw of course and can be debated but it was apparently not so overwhelming impressive to crack the top three or a place in the XI (the two frontmen). Considering context.

    I agree that Rummenigge was a poor choice, as was Stopyra in 1986.

    Who has the best ratio of those seven? Mexico has also improved in the meantime.

    Javier Hernandez (of ManU) has the best ratio of all in top 10 (or top 20). Does that make him a better player? Of course not. If anything, it signals again the trigger-happiness of this era, the weakness of the era and how much ahead the elite clubs (and their players) are on the others.

    Poor old Papin proved it in three different countries and at least two of these teams did not come close to Liverpool in their pump.
     


  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    This gives a brief impression:

    All Lineker goals for England


    Sanchez his career high 38 league goals in 1989/1990


    Some of the most notable ones
     
  6. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    No, honestly. What are you actually trying to get at here?

    That's more clear cut than I had remembered, especially as Pancev matched every one of Papin's achivements and actually won the European Cup.

    His international record is respectable, but not amazing.

    If I compare his record to that of Ian Rush I don't think it is significantly better given the calibre of teams he scored against, the stage or the quality of his teammates.

    Simple question for you. What was superior about Papin's 1990-1 season when compared with Rush's 1983-4 season??

    A top striker, playing against the calibre of Mexico's opposition would probably expect better.
    Which three countries would those be? Belgium (one season of 20 goals), France and ...

    I would suggest that if Marseille didn't come close to Liverpool neither did the calibre of their opposition.
     
  7. frasermc

    frasermc Take your flunky and dangle

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    I don't know why you argue with Puck, comme. Arguing with Puck is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how brilliant you are at chess, the pigeon will just knock over the pieces, s**t on the board, and strut around like hes won.
     
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  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    That is really uncalled for. Yes, this is also for schwuppe.
     
  9. frasermc

    frasermc Take your flunky and dangle

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    Puck. It's an analogy. And I think it is merited. I'm having a hard time recalling anywhere where you have backed down in an argument. Regardless of what info is placed before you.
     
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    The original point/question is that Lineker is apparently rated higher in some club seasons because he supposedly played at a better league. I raised some caveats vis a vis Sanchez. Then I also look at the ratings at La Liga. I don't think Lineker was a equal or better player nor deserved to be on top in 85/86 (but you already clarified that it wasn't clear cut).

    Overall I think the accusation for a lack of professionalism on the part of the trainer without hints ("only God knows") is not very strong.
    I think the second season wasn't as good and the board decided, without approval of trainer, to buy Salinas, another pure CF. Apparently, Salinas won the battle and scored 20 goals as well in his first season (with Lineker on the wing). On top of that, the output of the team improved significantly in 1988-89 before the big signings were made. From 61 in 85-86, 63 in 86-87, 49 in 87-88 to 80 goals in 88-89. Apparently the choice was right. Yes, I know that Bakero and some others were signed as well.

    That's all and I'll leave it at that.
     
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  11. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member

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    No I agree with you (the point in post #60), but it made me laugh anyways.

    I don't know if that's what Puck is trying to say, but I don't think the difference in difficulty of their situations is big enough to rank one behind and the other ahead of the two same players (who probably were even better in Lineker's year) for practically doing the same thing.
     
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  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Sorry, I see now this addition, what do you mean with this? I understand the difference of difficulty part and that is indeed a big part of what I tried to say/question.

    Have to say/admit that I'm maybe a bit biased because over here many pundits, players etc. were a big fan of Sanchez (as center forward).
    !

    [btw, many of his caps came before and after his prime years and still he has a better ratio as everyone else in top seven of his country]

    Also think that Cruijff would be a really bad person if personal dislike guides his decisions. Lineker was the second (or third, depends on measurement) most expensive signing in the history of the club, it is a real waste of money to assassinate him for personal reasons.
    Probably their personal relationship wasn't that bad considering how Lineker supported the statements of his trainer when the latter caused a row about refs (supposedly) favoring Real Madrid. Example:
    http://kranten.kb.nl/view/article/id/ddd:011018450:mpeg21:p023:a0299

    But that was a sidenote (initially noticed by comme), core is indeed the difference in difficulty.
     
  13. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member

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    Visibilty in that game was poor, but an article that I own states that off a corner taken by him Argentina scored. Anyway, I’m not sure if there’s a slight deflection off another player or not, but the corner was definitely executed by him.

    I'd have to review again the info I have that pertains to that season to know the exact specifics - but yes, he had personal issues, problems that commenced not only during that season, but once he set foot onto European soil (anyone remembers the "Maradona-clan" at Barcelona? Or his introduction to recreational drugs?). Anyway, that's a story for another day.

    Regarding the injuries, Brescia was one of the teams that took him out once during a game that season. I also think the WC had a toll on his body and he received little rest during those years at Napoli. I believe he was in better physical shape the following season of 87/88.
     
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  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Thanks. Yes, I read about the match against Brescia that he used the word "torture" and after the match against Ascoli he said that maybe a screw in his ankle had broken lose. There was considerable attention for all the drama (and the actions of the club).
    Also for the subsequent season indeed much attention, due to the 'rivalry' vs Gullit. Think he was overall in better shape too; although dbscalcio (uses average of publications) gives a different picture it was mentioned how Maradona caught him in the ratings and popularity polls after 1/2 to 2/3 of the season. He also started to score goals on a frequent basis at the end of November 1987. It was noted he had lost some weight and extended his contract for four more years at December 1987 (which ended that saga for a while I think). On top of that, it was reported that the Napoli team in general played more attractive as in previous season - with arrival of Careca in autumn 1987 and De Napoli, Romano (signing of 1986) and some others getting on full steam (IIRC I've seen that somewhere on the internet too, that they were among the best in "most attractive team" poll).

    Squad ratings on dbscalcio show excellent ratings too. Three being ranked #1, two #2 with as lowest a #7 rank. In 1986-87 the ratings are excellent too, with three ranked at #1 but on average a lower rank and rating for whole team.
     
  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    If I make factual mistakes I don't bother to admit it.

    Anyhow, I understand schwuppe his comment now, I think. Yes, that was my thinking. I had question marks about putting Lineker ahead of Maradona/Gullit in 1985-86 (who had probably both a better season as the next one) and Sanchez below the same players in 1986-87 for difficulty reasons.

    For the question asked how I'd rate the top players for the club seasons it would probably something like this:

    1984: Platini
    1985: Maradona (not clear cut)
    1986: Maradona
    1987: Maradona (not clear cut)
    1988: Gullit
    1989: Matthaus (not clear cut)
    1990: Van Basten

    Another clear cut/obvious name in 1980s is Rummenigge in 1980-81 in my opinion.
     
  16. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    If I wanted to be disingenuous here I could point out that Lineker was named in the Onze XI for 1986 and 1987, while Sanchez was not named in that nor any other year. I could point out that Lineker and Ian Rush both finished ahead of Sanchez in the 1987 World Soccer voting.

    Equally in terms of the rating of Gullit I could point out that he won the Ballon d'Or in 1987 and finished nowhere in 1986.

    It wouldn't necessarily take into account the realities of the situation, but it's not wrong.
     
  17. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    I do find it interesting (though not necessarily wrong) that Serie A would have the best player in Europe for 7 years in a row considering that only 1 of the players you indicated (Van Basten in 1990) actually won the European Cup.

    I mean when England was banned from Europe in 1985 it still had the highest coefficient, and based on the last five years of the 1980s Germany had the highest coefficient.

    No doubt that Italy was a very strong league, but it was that strong to provide the best player every single season?

    Platini was a clear cut selection over Ian Rush in 1984 despite him winning the League, the European Cup, the League Cup, European Golden Boot, PFA Player of the Year, FWA Player of the Year?
     
  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Yes, there are contradictions in the awards. I saw another one yesterday; Gullit his best rated Serie A season is the 93-94 one with Sampdoria where he scores an impressive 6.90 as average rating (esp. considering team and role played), measured over 31 games (when Serie A in the meantime had evolved in the undoubtedly strongest league in the world). Yet, he doesn't score that well in the Ballon d'Or poll or Onze Mondial poll as in other years.

    I'd say that Rummenigge in 83-84 wasn't a good choice like you said. Lineker was also not a good choice for 86-87 in my opinion (as elaborated before). I also see that they included Van Basten for 86-87 in their team; about him I'd say that it is somewhat difficult to gauge him vis-a-vis Sanchez, Lineker and other strikers.
     
  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    I can write an elaborate reply here but I'll try to keep it as short as possible.

    I do not think that Serie A had in each of those seven years clearly the best player, this as disclaimer.
    I think the key ingredients of my background variables taken into account is the wider spread of talent around Europe (and IMO also more talent that was close to each other in abilities). This as 'excuse' for not dominating competitions as star players. How often did it happen that European Cup winners won the vote? Not even Cruyff in 1972 (while winning everything) won it. If I look at every winner since 1960 (I'll ignore the infancy years) I see this pattern:

    1960: Suarez NO
    1961: Sivori NO
    1962: Masopust NO
    1963: Yashin NO
    1964: Law NO
    1965: Eusebio NO
    1966: Charlton NO
    1967: Albert NO
    1968: Best YES
    1969: Rivera YES
    1970: Muller NO
    1971: Cruyff YES
    1972: Beckenbauer NO
    1973: Cruyff YES
    1974: Cruyff NO
    1975: Blokhin NO
    1976: Beckenbauer YES
    1977: Simonsen NO
    1978: Keegan NO
    1979: Keegan NO
    1980: Rummenigge NO
    1981: Rummenigge NO
    1982: Rossi NO
    1983: Platini NO
    1984: Platini NO
    1985: Platini YES
    1986: Belanov NO
    1987: Gullit NO
    1988: Van Basten NO
    1989: Van Basten YES
    1990: Matthaus NO
    1991: Papin NO
    1992: Van Basten NO
    1993: Baggio NO
    1994: Stoichkov NO
    1995: Weah NO
    1996: Sammer NO
    1997: Ronaldo NO
    1998: Zidane NO
    1999: Rivaldo NO
    2000: Figo NO
    2001: Owen NO
    2002: Ronaldo NO
    2003: Nedved NO
    2004: Shevchenko NO
    2005: Ronaldinho NO
    2006: Cannavaro NO
    2007: Kaka YES
    2008: Ronaldo YES
    2009: Messi YES
    2010: Sneijder YES (journalist vote)
    2011: Messi YES (journalist vote)
    2012: Messi NO (journalist vote)

    If I made a mistake in this list, let me know but you see that European/World players winning EC/CL and Ballon d'Or was more the exception than rule. For whatever reason, although World Cups and -since 1972- european championships do have an impact.

    Basically, I think Serie A rose rapidly from 1982 to 1986. In 1986 they came on top in the ranking (yes, also helped by England ban), which also factors in results between 1982 and 1985.

    On top of that I think/know Serie A paid by far the most money for the very star players, the elite talents/athletes (like Rummenigge, Maradona, Falcao). Doesn't mean that everyone played there (like Sanchez) but it signals something. I also realize that salary does not match performance, like Platini who was perhaps even a bit underpaid.

    As said earlier, I think Platini his very best club season was 1983-1984. Then I look at ratings, statistics and also his physical state (in 82-83 he was still adapting for half of season too). Remember that Platini also won the Cup Winners Cup that year, so he achieved maximum result in the competition he could enter. It was also the first EC/CWC (generally the two most meaningful competitions) win by an Italian club since 1973 (Milan-Leeds) so it had some frontier-breaking significance I think. There are some more things to point out like Platini his performance against Liverpool in the Supercup game although that was technically a part of 84-85.
     
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Another important thing to add (forgot to say) is that Platini was not only topscorer in 83-84 but to my knowledge assist-leader of the league as well.

    Agree that rating players is difficult and it also seems that criteria have shifted over the years. In the past not necessarily great goalscorers were highlighted. More the midfielders, orchestrators or all-round players received praise. Though in 80s Serie A among the better scorers many were a midfielder or forward (with a heavy marked striker acting as dummy, foil, targetman and other jobs than scoring). It was an eye-opener when 'suddenly' Klinsmann, Basten etc. became as striker a focal point for their team too.
    In the last few years winning the CL seems to attract a big chunk of votes.

    For rating players in totality I also think one has to look at the total career but that isn't done here.

    Agree that rating leagues vis a vis each other is a hard job - that is also why I have a hard time in rating/gauging Simonsen, Stielike, Schuster, Cruyff, Maradona time at La Liga for example (though before Serie A opened their borders it was one of the main destinations for foreign stars). It is possible to simply look at performances and results in Europe but sometimes there might be a huge gap between both (i.e. Boniek who generally did better in European club competitions or Maradona who maybe performed worse at midweek matchdays).
     
  21. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    Now Puck, you are being a bit naughty here. Firstly ignoring the two seasons in which Di Stefano won the Ballon d'Or and then looking at years in which Euros and World Cups influenced heavily the victor.

    If I had time I could go through and strip out the players influenced by the Euros/WC and I think you would see how big an impact the EC tends to have. Not set in stone, but a mjaor impact.

    Platini scored 2 goals in the CWC, both of which came in a 7-0 thrashing of Lechia Gdansk.

    In comparison look at Rush's 5 goals in the EC. The only goal in a 1-0 aggregate victory over Athletic Bilbao, the only goal in Liverpool's 1-0 home win over Benfica in the quarter-finals, followed by the fourth against them in the return leg, both goals in Liverpool's away victory over Dinamo Bucharest in the semi-final. With the exception of the away goal against Benfica they were critical to Liverpool's success and came against quality opposition, and he also scored his penalty in the final.

    Now obviously, Rush was a striker and Platini a midfielder, but the most obvious comparison sees the Welshman ahead.
     
  22. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member

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    Platini had three assists in the later stages (2nd round - final), two against Haka and one vs. Manchester.
     
  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    [this is not meant to annoy you]

    Two vs Haka is a bit impossible because Juve only scored one goal in the game he played.
    http://www.rsssf.com/players/platini-in-ec.html

    When I did this for his European career I managed to find one vs Haka, one vs Manchester (semi-final) and one in the final vs Porto. In the final he was though not as excellent as vs Manchester and vs PSG but neither was Rush in his final (IMO - that was Souness his game I think).

    http://www.bigsoccer.com/community/...scussion-thread.1245347/page-88#post-26788629
    [click on spoiler tags]
     
  24. frasermc

    frasermc Take your flunky and dangle

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  25. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

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    Vignola played with number #10. He takes the set piece (with his left) leading to the goal.

    http://www.myjuve.it/season-1983-84..._cup-juventus-haka_valkeakosken-1-0-2536.aspx



    I made a note of this in my file - newspaper archives said the same, including shirt numbers used by players.

    Platini missed this 2nd leg of this quarter-final game on 21 March 1984 as well as the league matches against Catania and Fiorentina on 25/03/1984 and 01/04/1984 due to injury.
     
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