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The fight against modern football 3

Discussion in 'Business and Media' started by Numquam Moribimur, Apr 14, 2012.

Moderators: Real Corona
  1. Schapes

    Schapes Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2001
    No instances where fans have bought a club. Maybe where one individual has bought a club. To my knowledge though there is not a groundswell for change.

    I have watched the NFL team in my city for the last five years they have been terrible.

    The US was ok in the World Cup 2010.

    I don't have enough money, and the clubs I root for are run pretty well thank you very much.

    No it is not like buying a gadget. People have favorite restaurants, only buy certain cars, buy certain brands of shirts (Ralph Lauren) for me.

    Ever heard of brand loyalty. Guess not.

    Did it work for the Scottish clubs? Maybe the Spanish clubs should try it.

    You should know this - there are no guarantees in life. Sports clubs don't exist in a bubble.
    Just like any business they can fail.
     


  2. Schapes

    Schapes Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2001
    CCSULTRA Ultra - you never responded or provided a link? So just another bs post.
     
  3. Schapes

    Schapes Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2001

    One game does not a tour make.
     
  4. CCSUltra

    CCSUltra Member+

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2008
    Location:
    Cleveland
    Club:
    Hertha BSC Berlin
    Country:
    United States
    You don't that the Bundesliga is the most profitable league? Here's the league's entire financial report, in English! http://static.bundesliga.de/media/n..._wirtschaftssituation_2012_01-12_gb_72dpi.pdf

    If my posts are bs, what are yours? :rolleyes:

    There's a difference between a sports team and a brand. For many people, sports teams are more important than a product. Just because you don't feel that way does not mean that other people do. You can THINK that other people shouldn't feel that way, but why is that for you to say?

    You wanted a link for the one graph? I provided that as well.
     


  5. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    Joined:
    May 2, 2001
    Location:
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
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    England
    Well there's a surprise

    So your club has been terrible for five years and run pretty well?

    So suggesting you should buy the club if dissatisfied would be a pretty ridiculous suggestion, would it not?

    How is that different for fans in Europe?

    Brand loyalty is about thinking something is better. If there was another brand of shirts you thought were better than Ralph Lauren's range, you'd buy them instead. People don't loyally stick with bad products.

    But sports aren't a normal business. American sports actually realise this and put measures in place to try and stop clubs from dominating. Sports here are going in the opposite direction, going flat out to help the clubs who dominate be able to dominate even more.
     
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  6. Schapes

    Schapes Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2001
    Well - the ownership was in transition. They last two coaching hires haven't been good. Now there is hopefully the right boss in place.There is now a stable owner in place. I have chosen not to go to as many games as I had in the past ( as many people have). Due to their record, still root for them - still watch them on tv. If they get better, maybe I will start going to more games.


    It's different for the fans in Europe because They have this romantic notion they are different than other consumers. I don't. When the NFL team I support wasn't doing well and I wasn't happy with the way things are going I chose to something about it. I went to less games. You and vifvaf think that is treasonous. That is how pro sports work in America. If a club isn't doing well then attendance generally falls. Ownership responds - attendance rises again. If ownership doesn't respond - some franchises remain listless forever. Attendance remains poor.

    People Stick with poor products and companies all the time. I will NEVER switch to Nautical or any other dress shirt.

    American clubs realize they need each other to have a season. The Yankees have 27 World Series titles. The next closest is 11.

    In the NFL the top 15 teams in regards to Super Bowl appearances account for 80 appearances. The bottom ten account for 15 appearances.

    If American sports isn't business - then why does the NFL, NHL, NBA, MLB, all have their own television channel? To not promote the sport and make less money. Why does the NFL play a game in London? The NHL in Sweden? MLB in Japan?
     
  7. Schapes

    Schapes Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2001
    Thanks.

    So when Manchester United, Chelsea, Liverpool come to the States or Asia for pre-season, they state the reason is to build the brand in those parts of the world.

    When the NFL goes to London? NHL to Sweden? MLB to Japan? Goodwill?

    All those teams/leagues state the reason they go is to help build the brand in those areas of the world.

    It's the reason Ligue 1 rights aren't worth much in the US. Teams don't come over pre-season. No one follows. I think
    Lyon and Marseille are coming over this summer.
     
  8. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

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    Club:
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    It's exactly the same here too. Teams that are doing badly typically see a fall in crowds

    Even top sides are seeing a fall in demand. I know a guy who used to be a regular at Arsenal, for example, and while the Emirates is still full, he can tell by the ticket availability that demand is way down.

    A big difference here is that clubs don't always have that much power, and the protesting isn't necessarily against the club.

    Everton won the league twice in the 80s, for example. The fact that they get nowhere near now isn't because the owners aren't trying. Boycotting Everton would do nothing to achieve the goal of making Everton more able to compete.

    Never? Not even the quality became a bit poor? You wouldn't be tempted by another company offering something better at the same price?

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the modern era, in US sports, the trend has been towards more equality.

    Here, the trend is in the opposite direction.

    In England, for example, before the premier league formed, Liverpool, Arsenal and Man Utd had only all finished in the top four once ever.

    Since then, it's happened thirteen times.

    The 20 years of the premier league has seen just four winners (may increase to five this year). The previous 20 saw seven winners.

    The FA Cup has had 7 winners in 20 years prior to the premier league, and 11 in the 20 years before.

    The top division has gone from a league where just 10% of promoted clubs were relegated in their first season up, to one where 50% are.


    Who said sport isn't a business?
     
  9. Schapes

    Schapes Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2001
    The Arsenal issue could be the overall economy. I believe England is back in a recession. Less discretionary income.

    Ownership responds by spending more money on players. If they don't, attendance suffers.

    The Kansas City Royals and Pittsburgh Pirates are like Everton. Kansas City won in 1985. Pittsburgh won last in 1979. Haven't won anything since. Have not invested in new players (spent money). Attendance at both is abysmal.

    NEVER. The quality won't be poor. Ralph won't allow it.

    The top 10 NFL teams in order of number of Super Bowl appearances have 59.

    The next 18 have 39 appearances. Four teams have never been.

    I guess that is parity?

    My mistake - you said sports are not like other businesses.
     
  10. Schapes

    Schapes Member

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    Aug 20, 2001
    CCSUltra - you stated that European leagues switch to the Bundesliga model. Ok. I am with you. Yet, you didn't answer who pays the Glazers, Abramovich, Kroenke, Lerner Henry for their teams?
     
  11. Potowmack

    Potowmack Member+

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    I took that to mean that they should switch to the German financial model, which limits how much teams can spend on payroll as a percentage of their revenue. That encourages financial stability but does not do anything about the advantages big clubs have over the minnows.
     
  12. vifvaf

    vifvaf Member

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    Valerenga IF Oslo
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    So because i do not follow your example to boycott i lack conviction ? And by infiltrating the system to make change from the inside and at the same time be able to support your team , i lack conviction ? You present examples like Green/gold movement but have very little knowledge about what goes on behind the scenes in both United and other places where you base your comments on headlines from news papers . You have presented very little facts to back your view on the topic and yet you call for more facts from others. ( witch have been presented to you)

    Hahaha. Delaying the match ? The protest was because the match postponed . In what way do tennis balls jeopardize fellow fans ?
     
  13. vifvaf

    vifvaf Member

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    Valerenga IF Oslo
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    Norway
    I think the point is that clubs isn`t viewed as a thing one person get to own alone. It is seen as an organization that`s shared and open for everyone. That applies from children`s football to the elite. It seem like a fundamentally very different view than yours and Schape's view of a club is. It is a part of the community unlike any other product like Schapes compparison with shirts . The width in football is often run by volunteers and the spirit of voluntary work. And the same people come to support their top team. probably with one or more players the some or many of the crowd have been a part of to grow and develop to what he or they are today.

    You might see it as a romantic notion some have to a club. But either way it is how some see it. Others might share your view.
    Most clubs would not survive without their followers or volunteers and some clubs would not be where they are today without external investors or rich owners. But it is a mutual thing. Both parts should give and take a little and nothing will be solved without communcationand mutual respect.
     
  14. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

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    I think fan dissatisfaction is a big factor, even if I think Arsenal fans are a bunch of whingers for thinking that not winning at least one trophy every couple of years constitutes "hard times".

    At the price they pay for their tickets though, it is understandable. If you charge exceptional prices, you've got put out an exceptional team.

    Assuming that's a reference to Everton, they can't spend more money as they don't have money to spend. A club earning £75 million can't spend as much as one bringing in £150 million.

    The difference is the owners there are seemingly choosing not to spend, in order to keep cash themselves.

    It also seems quite apparent that contrary to what you say, staying away clearly doesn't make owners change their ways, as they've had low crowds and poor teams for decades.

    Could you at least try and imagine a situation where there'd be other shirts at the same price, but of a higher quality?

    It might be if you only count from when parity measures were introduced.

    In the last 20 seasons - since the premier league began - only 8 teams will have finished in the top 2, compared to 22 that have played in the superbowl.

    In the 20 years prior to the premier league, 13 teams finished in the top 2, compared to 16 in the 20 earlier superbowls.

    American sports seem to be getting closer, whereas sport here is going the other way.

    I'm not saying I'd actually want wage capping etc in the premier league, but everything is swinging in the favour of the richer clubs.

    A slightly different example, but Rangers in Scotland, part of a duopoly that has smothered the life out of all other clubs in Scotland, have been guilty of running up massive debts and avoiding tax payments, and have had a competitve advantage for years as a result. They are now in administration, and by all roights should be wound up and made to reform in the Scottish 3rd division.

    They are Rangers though, and completely contrary to the agreed rules of the league (not to mention the land, probably) their plan is to form a completely new club, transfer all of the club assets to the new club, and liquidate the old club - thus robbing their creditors of any chance of getting any money for their debts. And what's more, this new club is due to be able to start straight back in the SPL without sanction.
     
  15. guignol

    guignol Moderator Staff Member

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    well, while you fellows have been holding down the fort here i've been having a GREAT f*** modern football week.

    sunday morning my first time on the pitch since a very bad ankle injury* last summer and a goal scored... only my third or fourth in seven years. that evening i watched the neighborhood amateur team win in the last minute 4-3. tuesday a beautiful afternoon watching our ladies (best women's club team in the world) get a big win. wednesday evening a big finish from the pros, 3 goals in the last 22' to win 4-1. tomorrow the reserves and then sunday a double header, the ladies at 3 and the gents at 5. grand total for all seats: 16.50€.

    *the kraut bastard who did me is a lucky fellow. for three months all i could think about was how sweetly i was going to stitch him up when i got back. when i still hadn't healed by then i was ready to do a z-man on him. but hey, i'm a reasonable guy: after 10 months to get my temper under control i kissed him on both cheeks along with all my other buddies who thought they may never see me again.
     
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  16. Potowmack

    Potowmack Member+

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    Location:
    Washington, DC
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    DC United
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    United States
    That's due to MLB's financial model. Small-market teams get a cut of the luxury tax payments from the big teams that spend above the soft salary cap. However, even with the luxury tax payments, small-market teams can't compete with the Yankees, Red Sox etc. The owners in places like Kansas City and Pittsburgh are making a rational economic decision: pocketing the luxury tax income and not spending much on players is the most profitable approach for them personally.

    If you want small teams to be competitive and profitable, you need a system that combines revenue sharing with a salary cap and a salary floor.
     
  17. vifvaf

    vifvaf Member

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    Valerenga IF Oslo
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    Is there any club run by its members or any club with 51 % or more run by member or fans in any eleite sport in USA ?
     
  18. vifvaf

    vifvaf Member

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    So all the fans in Europe is wrong and you are right ? :p
    You Schapes are what we here call a successes supporter. Instead of providing support during adversity and try to change something to the better ,you back off and let others take the dirty job. And when there yet again is succsses you come rujnning back to the arena and tell everyone how you ALWAYS supported the team or club.
    And meanwhile you make up your mind based on what you read in the papers and what they say on the news.



    I would agree that American sports, from what i know is as close to a business you can get within sports. The point is that we want to avoid that the football in Europe especially to get to close to a business model and not letting the commerce forces get the upper hand. If so i think it will destroy football as we know it. And i do not think the people working to get there understand the consequences if they get there. That is where i find Europeans and Americans VERY different. I do not think it would work in Europe.
     
  19. vifvaf

    vifvaf Member

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    Valerenga IF Oslo
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    You should know this - there are no guarantees in life. Sports clubs don't exist in a bubble.
    Just like any business they can fail. :ROFLMAO: Glazers, Abramovich, Kroenke and Lerner Henry all should know so to ;)
     
  20. vifvaf

    vifvaf Member

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    If you try then to see how not all leagues is a big marked you would see the same signs. The polish or Dansih league can not compare with say the Eredivisie.

     
  21. vifvaf

    vifvaf Member

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  22. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

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    It's actually one of those strange counter-intuitive outcomes, that American sports, run by hard-nosed businessmen, are far better at producing a "product" that's appealing to a wide range of people than occurs elsewhere.

    In the USA, high ratings come from having competitive teams in a lot of markets.

    Here, high ratings come from having a small number of perpetually successful teams being shown more than the rest. It also works well for overseas viewers too, although the continued appeal of Liverpool overseas suggests brand loyalty might not be quite as fickle as assumed.
     
  23. vifvaf

    vifvaf Member

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    This is what im made of

     
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  24. vifvaf

    vifvaf Member

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    Fans often feel like a part of the product. The discussion often go back to the ticket price and people say why don`t you just boycott. Well every supporter i know want the best for their club. when you at the same time se you self as a part of the club or product you do what you can to get the best result possible. Im then talking about everything from how the event it self is done , Stadium regulations, adapted ticket prices or the way the club appears outwardly. Things like boycott is often the very last solution.
    Suggestions from fans is never about hurting their own club. Maybe persons , owners or other factors they consider as a threath to their own operations or interests.

     
  25. vifvaf

    vifvaf Member

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    Living where i live i do not see the big need for either the clubs or the fans in Norway to make a tour. I understand the business part of going on tour in Usa and Asia. I still think it is a bad thing to focus to much on theese markeds. Especially over time. What is your point to this topic ? Make as much money as possible now and take the consequences later ?
     
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