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The fight against modern football 3

Discussion in 'Business and Media' started by Numquam Moribimur, Apr 14, 2012.

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  1. Schapes

    Schapes Member

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    No risk to the person suing potentially. Law firms take cases on a contingency. They only get paid if the client gets anything.

    If the US had the Great Britain system where loser pays. Say someone gets clobbered by a flag - at the Home Depot Center watching the LA Galaxy.

    That person who got hit in the head could get a law firm on a contingency where the law firm only gets money if the person who gets clobbered in the head gets money.

    If the US had the loser pays like Great Britain - the person who got clobbered with the flag would have to weigh whether he thought he could win. If he loses - he would have to pay the Galaxy's attorney fees , plus maybe court costs if he loses.

    So under loser pays - you must think you have a good chance at winning.
     


  2. vifvaf

    vifvaf Member

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    But you have argued earlier in theis thread that you at least have freedom of speech in the US ?
    So you feel the freedom of speech isn`t completely free where you live then ? Yet another interesting fact.
     
  3. vifvaf

    vifvaf Member

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    Ok ?
    So what does Schapes comment mean then ?

    They have argued about the litigious nature of America. Some people want to have it like it is in Great Britain. Loser pays. Which means if someone brings a suit and they lose - the loser has to pay court costs, attorney fees, etc. to the winner.

    People who don't support it say that doesn't allow disadvantaged people to bring lawsuits.

    In America, some law firms will take cases on a contingency. Which means they get paid if their side wins. If their side loses a case - they get paid nothing.
     
  4. CCSUltra

    CCSUltra Member+

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    Yes, it is true that there are lots of law firms that only work on contingency fees. However, lawyers will only take a contingency lawsuit if they think they have a good chance of settling or winning. It stops lots of people from actually suing. It can be hard to get someone to take a case. Lawsuits are lengthy; the injured party has to go years without compensation. Lawsuits are not cheap.
     


  5. vifvaf

    vifvaf Member

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    Yes. Something i think should be obvious.
    Should i sue ? What are my chanses of winning? Am i right ?
    Questions i find natural to ask your self before contactin a lawyer to sue someone.
     
  6. vifvaf

    vifvaf Member

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    What do you think about the sue culture in your country ?
     
  7. Schapes

    Schapes Member

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    Until the laws change - the culture won't change.

    Liberals don't want to change the laws because they say the poor would not have a very good chance of suing if they knew they might have to pay attorney fees of the other side if they lose.
     
  8. vifvaf

    vifvaf Member

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    A very political correct answer there ;)
     
  9. Schapes

    Schapes Member

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    Many people have also called for tort reform that would cap damages. Maybe if some Americans didn't treat a chance to sue someone as an equivalent of winning a lottery - there could be flags at sporting events!

    Who knows - if the society wasn't litigious - maybe even pyro!
     
  10. BarraUru

    BarraUru Member

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    Damn USA is boring, no supporter culture. No banners, no fireworks, no historic rivalries, plus the 'clubs' are really franchises, they use fans as customers. Let me give you an example :

    The oldest rivalry outside of Britain is Peñarol-Nacional, the two biggest teams of my country. The most played derbie in history. Two of histories biggest teams. Here, we talk about our teams even when we're partying or making out with a girl. You can see it in the streets, murals of either team, graffitis, people with the club shirts on even when there isn't a game. Luckily football here hasen't been converted into a buiseness like in Europe. It's still how it has to be, for and by the people (Saying by the people I refer that here clubs have associates, we can actually decide things for our club, we don't have an owner that uses the club for a personal benefit or profit). If we wanna kick out a leader, we get together and we do stuff to kick him out, with violence or without violence. Because we love our club and we don't ever want to see our club bad, losing games, and leaders stealing money from the club. We would never let somebody buy our club, even if it ment having the best players. Because it's our club, I would give my life for Peñarol, it's more than my family or anything else. A club to a Argentinian or Uruguayan is very special, you can see documentals in YouTube of BBC, it's something I can't explain, damn I'm writing this and I got goosebumps. That's why many of you Americans don't get the violence, because we actually do things for our club. If somebody were to try to ban this 'folklore' (as we say in spanish), we will do anything to stop it. We love our club so much sometimes we react violently, like when River relegated in Argentina last year. Try to understand us, football is a very important part of our culture, I would say the most important. I'm talking about a tradition that comes from more than 100 years ago.

    I mean, ok there is some kind of passion for American Football, but no where near club level like South America or Europe (Mainly eastern Europe, because EPL and that shit is turning into
     
  11. Potowmack

    Potowmack Member+

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    Frankly, if your description of your fan culture (using violence to remove leaders, reacting violently to relegation, being ready to die for your team) is really accurate, I'm glad we don't have that culture in our country. You need to give some thought to your priorities and morals- they're pretty screwed up, honestly.

    There are sports teams in the US with 100+ year old histories and multi-generational fan bases. But, what you've described sounds more like a cult than fans of a sports team.
     
    Schapes repped this.
  12. Schapes

    Schapes Member

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    Vifvaf?
     
  13. vifvaf

    vifvaf Member

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    The Old Firm . Follow the links to see the hole documentary
     
  14. vifvaf

    vifvaf Member

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    Schapes ?
     
  15. Schapes

    Schapes Member

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    No response to what Potowmack posted? Does it sound familiar?
     
  16. BarraUru

    BarraUru Member

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    You don't get it, you don't know what it means to go to a another stadium to see your team, spend all your money just to see your team, you don't get it, there isn't any football culture in USA, you will never understand.

    I sold my dog just to go see my team in Brazil last year, I would sell my organs I don't care, you just won't get it because you don't live in a society that is so crazy about football and their teams. To you your team is entertainment, it's managed by millionares who just want money.

    Look at some supporters in New York (getting together just to watch a movie about Peñarol supporters).




    Here's the movie (in spanish) :

     
  17. Potowmack

    Potowmack Member+

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    No, I get that some people have an unhealthy obsession with their sports team. We have weirdos like that in the US, too. I just don't accept that this is a good thing. Selling your pet, a living creature you committed to taking care of just so you could go see a soccer game? Yeah, that's messed up.

    You're making a very good case that it's really for the best that we don't have the type of fan culture in the US.
     
  18. vifvaf

    vifvaf Member

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    Familiar to what ? I get what BaraUru is trying to say although i may not agree on everyhting he says.
    Potowmack said : We have weirdos like that in the US, too. Well where BaraUru lives the "wierdos" may be more the normality then exeption .
    They have a different culture , community , priorities , rules and values then you.
    Fans from other places world may say the same about you , that you have wierd priorities in your lifes and a unhealthy relationship to your clubs. It is the fact that it do not fit in to your life and community that makes it foreign to you.
    As said before i to find it difficult to explain how people think and why things are as they are.

    As i see it the South Americans have place for everyone in the stands. That is what we are trying to keep in Europe.
     
  19. Schapes

    Schapes Member

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    I would say that the majority of people (not all fans but the general population and probably healthcare professionals) would say Potowmak's version of fandom is healthier than what you espouse or BarraUru.
     
  20. Potowmack

    Potowmack Member+

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    As my Serbian cousin said "Normal people don't go to soccer games in Serbia." His point is probably overstated, but it's a common feeling in a lot of countries, where the toxic fan culture keeps a lot of normal, well-adjusted people (especially members of the middle-class) from going to games. I doubt the average fan in Uruguay is willing to engage in violence for their favorite teams.
    Sure, and as described by BaraUru, their fan culture, community, priorities, rules and values are pretty screwed up.
    Well, they're wrong. A person who is willing to sell his dog to go to a soccer game is the one with weird priorities and an unhealthy relationship with their club. I'm not the one with the problem here.

    No, I understand what BaraUru is trying to say. I just don't agree that his viewpoint is correct or healthy.

    Except, that's not true. The toxic, violent culture in a lot of South American soccer stadiums keeps a lot of people away.

    I can give you two examples of the negative aspects of that culture. A friend of mine is working in Chile for an American energy company. He's a soccer fan and was a season ticker holder for DC United here in DC. He asked some of his Chilean co-workers whether they wanted to go to a match in Santiago, and they laughed at the notion. To them, the stadium is no place for a regular middle class person, and you certainly can't take your family there.

    Another friend is from Bolivia, and he recalls how he was at a match when he was younger, sitting in the better seats. Halfway through the game, a mini-riot broke out and the police ended up tear-gassing some fans, and my friend and his family had to leave when the tear gas floated up to their seats.

    I think you're pretty naive if you don't understand that the Ultras in places like Eastern Europe and South America are very intimidating to the more well-adjusted members of society. That small minority of fans drives many people away from the stadiums. The reason that type of fan culture is being driven out of the stadiums in many countries is because of that fact.
     
  21. CCSUltra

    CCSUltra Member+

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    It really does. The ultras in Germany, Scandinavia, and other Western European countries don't scare fans away. The stadiums are safe. There is a place for everyone.

    In some parts of Central and Eastern Europe, the Ultras dominate. The stadiums aren't safe. It's just starting to change in Poland. The building of all the new stadiums has really helped. Families can feel safe going to the game. They don't have to worry (as much) about getting attacked by rioting hooligans.
     
  22. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

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    To be frank, if your football team is the most important thing in your life, something is seriously wrong with your life.
     
  23. BarraUru

    BarraUru Member

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    Majority? I see that people in the US are addicted to cell phones and tablets and that's not healthy too me. At least my team can make me happy. My happiness doesn't depend on how much money I'm making or if I have the latest LED tv. Pretty funny that you say that are culture is screwed up when most of the people in the USA are addicted to consuming, to having a great job, they drive to everywhere, everybody is addicted to their cell phone and are the number 1 country with the fattest people. Just because we are very passionate people doesn't mean we're screwed up. Looks like your society is pretty muched screwed up with people like you.

    In Uruguay families can go to watch a game, don't know if families can do the same in Chile, but atleast here they can and they do. I sold my dog, so what? I went to Brazil and watched the Copa Libertadores final against Santos.

    Don't even bother giving your opinion because you live in a closed society where people only interact with other people at their jobs and through Skype.


    P.S : Fan culture isn't being driven out of stadiums here, it's not like Europe. We don't have millionares and companies who own sports luckily, football is still ours..
     
  24. BarraUru

    BarraUru Member

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    You can say whatever you want, because you live in England and the culture is very different from here. Football in England isn't even for the people now, tickets are very expensive and most of the people in stadiums are turists. Your league is globalized, therefore the richer people are the ones with possibilites of watching their team. It's hard for me to explain this in english, but here when you are born you are taught to love your team just as much as you love your mother. You start to go to the stadium to watch your team when you are little. You travel to see your team. You see your team lose, and win, and you are always there. You see players playing in your team for the colours, not the money like in Europe. Look at Chelsea or Manchester, all the players are foreigners who are there because of the money, nobody cares about the fans or the team. Aguero posted in facebook today a status very sad because Indendiente, the team where he grew up and which he supports (one of the three bigest teams in South America along with Boca and Peñarol), may relegate next season (A team that has never relegated in more than 100 years). Lavezzi has tattoos of Rosario Central, even Messi has said publicly that he wants to retire in Newells, Forlan said he would only kiss the badge of Uruguay and Peñarol.


    A weirdo (and ignorant) here or in Argentina would be Potowmack.
     
  25. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

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    That's nonsense.

    Most grounds in the top division are sold out to season ticket holders, and they won't be tourists. Even when there are seats available, there's usually a member scheme, so unless you buy off a tout, it's actually not that easy for a tourist to get a ticket.

    You also get very few tourists even wanting to go to see most clubs in the top tier, and virtually none outside it.

    Even 30 years ago people weren't genuinely putting their club as the most important thing in their life, unless that is, their life was seriously lacking in some way.

    Even those who liked fighting tended to do it for the buzz they got out of fighting as much as anything else.

    Heysel, in England at least, killed the idea that fighting at football was some kind of noble cause. Violence was seen for what it is, an ugly stain on the game that masquerades as passion, when it's anything but.

    For all the talk of fans always being there for the team, the truth is they aren't, certainly not in South America. Big games apart, crowds aren't very good, and the fans that supposedly live and breathe their club can't usually be bothered to go and actually watch. Even in Europe support can take different forms. I dated a girl who was a Panathinaikos fan for a while. Dead crazy for the team (lived in Athens), would buy one of the Panathinaikos newspapers every day, would spend half an hour on the phone every day talking to her sister about the team, yet hardly ever bothered to go.


    Of course the weird thing about fan dedication in England, real devotion, is that it always seemed to be linked to smaller clubs, or clubs that are failures, rather than large clubs - the South American fanatics in contrast always seem to follow a top side.

    Not even "Golden" Gordon Ottershaw, Barnstoneworth United supporter extraordinaire of Ripping Yarns fame, ever sold his dog to follow his team to a match though.

    Haggerty R, Haggerty F, Noble, Tomkins, Crapper, Dewhurst...
     
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