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Torres to start

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Pragidealist, May 25, 2012.

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  1. Marko72

    Marko72 Member+

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    We always had issued under Bob giving up the early goal or early chance (and Jamaica really should've had that one). Doesn't change the fact that we were kicking their asses all game and only our poor finishing was keeping the match competitive. More to the point, we bossed the midfield (with both of our CMs in rather poor form). Which is what I'm referring to. That pairing is a good pairing for Jamaica. I like it a lot better than Torres+somebody or Torres+2 somebodies against them.

    I do think Torres will be very useful, quite likely as a starter, in the other two matches. And I want him to start against Scotland for sure. That's exactly the kind of test he could use that could really boost his confidence if he's successful. (Or tell Klinsi something if it isn't.)

    Where Jamaica worries me is the match-up of their forwards against our slowish CBs. In the center of midfield, we should have 'em. Which is where I hope Cameron can help out if he can round into some good form (this MLS season hasn't been good to him yet, IMO).
     


  2. Pragidealist

    Pragidealist Member

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    Possibly but what would that mean when Dempsey returns? Is he in the starting 11 against Brazil?​
     
  3. Konut

    Konut Member

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    Lol we'll see. It just seems like Klinsmann is in love with Torres (which I'm not really opposed to right now), and a standard 4-3-3 seems like the best way for us to utilize him. Do you not agree with what I said about Torres not liking to go forward, but he also won't cut it as a true #6 internationally? That's why I want Jones, Bradley, or maybe even Johnson to play a box to box role in front of him.
     
  4. Pragidealist

    Pragidealist Member

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    So how bout this

    -------------------------Jozy
    Dempsey------------------------------------Donovan
    --------------------Torres
    ------------Jones------------------
    -----------------------------Bradley
    Johnson--------Boc----------Gooch--------------Dolo

    Then Dempsey can slid up for more of a 4 4 2 look and play behind Jozy... or Donovan can slide up and pressure a back line with his speed. The two can interchange throughout the game

    Torress is used not so much as a trule #10, but a linking player that moves the ball and a player that the others can play off of?
     


  5. Pragidealist

    Pragidealist Member

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    I think this is a strong possibility. Another thing mentioned in that podcast is JK's request for Torres to move I could see this.
     
  6. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    TheHoustonHoyaFan Member+

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    I agree that Torres is not going to attack the opponent and make the killer pass for an assist. He is more likely to make the pass that enables the assist pass.

    He has been much more of a distributor/#8 than a creator/#10. From his club matches I have seen, mostly the latter half of his season he does not play a #6/destroyer. In fact he plays in front of a pretty rugged DM at Pachuca! He has been more attacking than I have seen from him in the past.

    Xavi also does not play a #6 for club (really more of a #8) or country (a #10 in a 4-2-3-1 at the last WC).
     
  7. Pragidealist

    Pragidealist Member

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  8. PANDEMONEUM

    PANDEMONEUM Member

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    i prefer playing these friendly games and qualifying games
    the same way that we would/will play in the WC
    we r NOT a goal scoring team
    3 goals vs easy opponents, is our max
    so i definitely want a possession and D oriented team
    im in favor of a 4-2-3-1 formation
    i could see a change for more attacking by going 4-1-3-2
    we NEED that possession DM in front of our back 4
    the 2 main concerns are
    1.) Left FB and
    2.) Left Mid, when/if Dempsey is at F

    addition : between Torres, Bradley, Edu, our possession and control of the game should b excellent
     
  9. LouisZ

    LouisZ Member+

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    I just don't see Torres playing the 10, he is not a scorer. Although green, Corona is the right choice if not LD.
     
  10. Bob Morocco

    Bob Morocco Member+

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    Corona is less creative than Torres. He is a cog that finishes chances created by others. Against a weak team it would be interesting to see a classic Milan like:

    ------------Corona--------------Bradley------------
    -----------------------Torres-------------------------

    what I think we could see in this first game:
    ----------------------Donovan-----------------------
    ---------Torres----------------Jones-----------------
    -----------------------Bradley------------------------
     
  11. LouisZ

    LouisZ Member+

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    Donovan is not a forward any longer. My choice is Boyd, if not him, Wondo. Corona played the 10 with the under 23 and did a very good job, with TJ is mostly as a wing. In less than 24 hours we will see.
     
  12. dwsmith1972

    dwsmith1972 BigSoccer Supporter

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    First, Torres is not Pirlo, obviously. Not even close. Having said that, I think if we use him he would positionally best be utilized in the same sort of role that Pirlo was with AC Milan when he sat deep and had Ambrosini and Gattuso providing industry and cover for him. I think Bradley and Jones obviously could fill such roles. Of course, that would mean we would be playing with one true forward and 2 other attacking players [ie Jozy, Deuce and Donovan].

    I also do not believe that Torres is the defensive and physical liability that many others seem to think. While he is certainly not a great defender, I do not think he is poor, either.
     
  13. Bob Morocco

    Bob Morocco Member+

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    He did an amazing job finishing (they were very subtly skillful), but Mike Bradley had a similar run at a higher level and over an entire season. What he didn't do, in any of the 4 U-23 games I saw, was make many incisive final passes. Freddy, Mix, Juan, and Shea all created more for others than he did. He seemed to have a Holden like ability to play simply out of pressure and combine, he was a consistently solid performer. I suspect his passing statistics were very good but the degree of difficulty was lower, especially for his missed passes, than those 4 guys I listed who were more creative. To me he's a candidate for the more attacking #8 role with Johnson, Torres, Feilhaber, Zusi etc....
     
  14. SoCalYid

    SoCalYid Member+

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    Pretty much the same thing Juve did this season as well with Marchiso and Vidal. The difference is Pirlo with some space and sitting deep is likely leaving RVP unmarked in the penalty area. If he's given that space he'll make something happen. Someone put it well with Torres, he can keep the ball well, but he doesn't create an awful lot imo.

    I've complained about this in some of the Pachuca match threads. I don't think he's bad necessarily defending but he's lazy. To often during matches is he walking around, not tracking back, or not moving off the ball making himself available to his teammates, when his club would benefit from him doing so.
     
  15. usfootball20

    usfootball20 Member

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    I'm thinking about 2014 here, and I'm not really sure what Torres would do for us against top teams like Germany, Spain, Holland, etc. He may be a neat passer against CONCACAF teams, but beating them is not our long term goal. If we want to play a 4-2-3-1, Bradley and Jones seem like the obvious 2. A 4-3-3 or 4-3-2-1 is the only way Torres can be used as a starter I believe, but I'm not sure those are the best formations against top teams.
     
    deuteronomy repped this.
  16. Scotty

    Scotty Member+

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    Yes we were. And the stats back this up:

    Stats Summary: USA / JAM
    Shots: 17 / 7
    Shots on Goal: 10 / 3
    Saves: 3 / 8
    Corner Kicks: 6 / 1​

    http://www.ussoccer.com/news/mens-national-team/2011/06/usa-defeats-jamaica.aspx
     
  17. Mr Martin

    Mr Martin Member+

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    http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2012/05/25/armchair-analyst-pre-scotland-us-stock-watch

    Today's Armchair Analyst column's main points:

    * 4 cuts were logical
    * 4-3-3 is out
    * 2nd forward is in
    * wide play is out
    * Torres is in as a key player, for better or worse


     
  18. deuteronomy

    deuteronomy Member+

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    JK praises Wondo:
    http://www.mercurynews.com/earthquakes/ci_20711672

    "First and foremost is he scores goals," Klinsmann said during a national conference call with reporters. "He is hungry for goals, no matter if it is in training or in an MLS game. Every place. This is fun to watch."

    "He doesn't stop running," the coach said. "He doesn't stop fighting. He helps his teammates. He's a pure giver."

    "He's tremendously fit," the coach said. "He's sharp. He's experienced. He understands better what it takes to be an international striker. He's hungry for information. He's like a sponge."

     
  19. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

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    That's the way I see it too.

    In 4-4-2, he's an "8", not a "10".

    The real questions are in his companions.

    I think the US defense would be a bit too soft with him and Bradley against a decent side.

    But if you play him and JJ, where do you play Bradley?

    And, if you do play Bradley as well, you're in a Diamond with Mikey on the right and JF on the left. Then you're in a sort of pulley system (and without a proven #10).

    But in a Diamond, with Torres and Bradley, there's presumably neither sufficient defense or offense, which is only exacerbated by the absence of a #10, even if Mikey makes a ton of runs without the ball and into the box as a "ghost to the post".

    So, these are the questions to be answered.

    I made a post in another thread that the Diamond has certain requirements for the "skilled" positions that the US may have shortcomings in.

    Jürgen must be rating his players a bit higher than I do.
     
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  20. freisland

    freisland Member+

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    Depending on how old you are: Reyna was a "linking mid." Mathis was a creative mid. Really Dempsey is better example of a 'creative mid" but the Reyna/Mathis contrast was more striking (because Mathis was so attack minded in his day.) Reyna developed a nickname: Spongebob square-pass that perfectly evokes the linking mid. Get ball, carry ball until challenged, get rid of ball in a way that allows possession to continue, even over threatening the goal. Mathis or Demps, on the other hand, will look for the killer-pass, killer-move or safe pass to ignite the killer-move - even if it has a lower chance of maintaining possession.
     
  21. freisland

    freisland Member+

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    If this is the actual line-up, I think in practical run out - esp against a Scotland - it plays a bit more like Arena's unbalanced midfields. Bradley and Demps end up playing a little more forward - Demps a RAM/withdrawn FWD, torres the hub of a wheel, Bradley more box to box on the right, Donovan a bit more winglike and Edu (I'm guessing for Scotland) sliding between left-side pass outlet and central DM anchor. These are all shading of the way these guys tend to play. JK might try to keep Mikey back a bit, but the point would be let him loose when Demps was wide or deep to crash the box. (of course, without Demps for Scotland this won't be the actual line-up, so the Demps slot will likely be a more FWD like FWD and Bradley will have more room - it will play like more of a 4-1-3 when the Bradley-bot goes forward that shifts to a 4-2-2 defensively when the Bradley-bot runs back.

    It's funny, because I do think with Torres we will be able to revive the old Reyna debates, which were so mind numbing. The only difference is that Torres is, to date at least, not as good as Reyna, so if he doesn't produce the meltdown will be quicker and perhaps more complete.
     
  22. Dignan

    Dignan Member+

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    You aren't going to win many games with just three attackers. Especially when you put Bradley behind Jones and Torres. Bradley can help the attack, having him play fifth defender is a waste of his talent. However, this is what I expect JK to play. And I expect we will get ties where we should win, and lose when we should tie.

    I am not convinced about Torres. He has some good, but he also has a lot of downside. Slow, small, easily pushed off the ball, very little attacking prowess, etc. Others pointed it out already.
     
  23. Bob Morocco

    Bob Morocco Member+

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    Both Torres and Bradley have operated for their clubs in the L and R CM roles. Mike could end up getting into the box from time to time (while playing as the 4th attacker) while Torres hangs back. They will have DM cover, the tip of the spear is a bit non-traditional but Torres could fill a lot of the possession distribution duties of a 10 while Landon does the attacking. Clint would fit a bit better but he's out.


    When you look at the recent history of international and club football the Reyna-O'Brien pairing is an outlier in terms of player skills. They were two very technical linking-mids who were both tenacious defenders and whose attacking styles complimented one another.
     
  24. freisland

    freisland Member+

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    Brief shining moments of soccer synchronicity. Bease-Donovan was a much more lasting partnership, a solid, mature in their youth relationship until they drifted apart. Wolfe-Mathis was days of wine and roses - a summer holiday bender - no one could have lasted through the heat of that bromance. CR-JOB was our Casablanca - ("We'll always have Korea ..." - a chimera, a mirage, a flash of what might have been. But alas...)
     
  25. Maximum Optimal

    Maximum Optimal Member+

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    Interesting piece. I have a feeling the key to the puzzle with the current group of 23 is figuring out how Castillo and Fabian Johnson fit in. In the past six months, they have both switched positions from where JK had them with the national team. Castillo going from left back to left mid. Fabian Johnson going the other way. I think both will end up starting on the left side, but it remains to be seen where. Btw with Dempsey as the 10, the distinction between the 4-3-3 and 4-4-2 gets rather blurry. Were we playing the 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 against Italy? Even Dempsey seemed unsure given his comments that sometimes he took on the defensive job of shadowing Pirlo but other times didn't get around to it.

    It will be interesting to see who replaces Dempsey as the #10. If it is Torres, then obviously we are not playing the 4-4-2. If Wondo, we are.
     
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