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US Open Cup GK controversy

Discussion in 'Referee' started by CKRef22, Aug 10, 2012.

Moderators: IASocFan, MassachusettsRef
  1. CKRef22

    CKRef22 Member

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  2. Gary V

    Gary V Member

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    Close enough for jazz.
     
  3. NC Soccer United

    NC Soccer United BigSoccer Yellow Card

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    Did Christina Pedersen open up a gigantic can of worms? Are we now gonna have controversy on every sinle trifling infraction now? It seems like we are going to start picking nits to determine if a team "wuz robbed" and now they want to talk about if the gk was off the line too soon.
     
  4. HeyDude

    HeyDude Member

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    Leagues are always the first ones to protect their refs. If a player, coach administrator, owner ever talk bad about refs. The culprits are immediately disciplined. I am really baffled in why the MLS network would have such a post. This just goes against logic from a leagues marketing standpoint. Are they trying to say that their refs do not apply the laws correctly? When the USSF originally had the week in review, they were meant as teaching points. What is this teaching?
     


  5. soccerman771

    soccerman771 Member

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    Not enough to tell from those shots.

    I always say, let em cheat, don't let em rob. 1 foot's ok, 2 we're bringing it back.
     
    nicklaino repped this.
  6. fairplayforlife

    fairplayforlife Member

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    I hope the refs were able to get the number of that bus that just hit them. :eek:
     
    GTReferee repped this.
  7. NC Soccer United

    NC Soccer United BigSoccer Yellow Card

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    No shit and the make of the tires too since they are etched on their backs. That article pissed me off. We are trying to create faux drama and it blows up because now everyone is going run with it that the officiating was awful because they couldn't manage pk's properly. Whatever. Friggin uneducated sheeple are going to start bleating to me about 6 seconds violation and gk coming off the line.
     
  8. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator Staff Member

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    Even as someone that said I believe the call felt "unfair," this "article" is absurd. First, the call is down to opinion of the referee. Not that an opinion can't be questioned or debated, as we do here, but why on earth throw one of your top official's under the bus so deliberately and systematically (and, yes, I know it wasn't in MLS competition)? USSF should be livid about this, I think.

    Second, not to humor the article too much and go shot for shot analyzing each, but if you do look at all of them, it's pretty clear that the re-taken one (RD 5, on the left) is: A) the one where the goalkeeper was furthest forward & B) the only still photo clearly taken before contact with the ball is made, therefore C) the goalkeeper was actually further forward if we compare apples to apples.

    In sum, say what you want about the merits of fairness of the call, but that kick was definitely the most egregious violation of all 11 kicks. So I'm not sure what comparing all of them side-by-side accomplishes, other than trying to embarrass a top referee.
     
  9. refontherun

    refontherun Member

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    I can't really make a valid determination from the screenshots. The forward momentum can't be judged from that. Even so, how much angle are you shutting down with a foot (or less) off the line.
     
  10. usaref

    usaref Member

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    One question in regards to the KFTPM:

    Where does everyone else usually stand as the referee on KFTPM? If you watch a few video below, Salazar has a very interesting position. Also you can see how far the GKs moved on each kick.



    The video also shows just how awful the shooting was from the kickers! The GKs did well, but the kickers were awful!:cool:
     
  11. soccerman771

    soccerman771 Member

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    On a PK I'll stand a little behind the kick taker and really watch for a stop in run-up and for encroachment.

    On KFTM, I'm parallel to the spot about 3-4 yards back from being adjacent to the near post.
     
  12. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator Staff Member

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    Thanks, usaref, for posting the link.

    Two things I'd love to know... 1) is Salazar warning him at 0:11 after the first kick, or merely telling him to go to the other side? Given his hand gestures before the GK moves in his direction, I really think that was a warning.

    2) Salazar seems to call it but Rockwell also reacts immediately at 1:16. Are the two of them just that zoned in with each other (yes, I know given how well and often they worked together, that it's possible) and Rockwell realized his visual maneuver would help Salazar sell the call? If so, that's brilliant by Rockwell. In the rare instances I've seen this called, the AR is usually a statue. Or did Rockwell actually beep Salazar first to initiate the call? Given Salazar's chosen position, I think that's unlikely.
     
  13. usaref

    usaref Member

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    Agreed. I'm just wondering what Salazar gains by standing there. If the kicker violates the law then he has to turn his head away from the keeper to even see it.
     
  14. CanadaFTW

    CanadaFTW Member

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    The video makes it clear as to why this one kick was called back. Obviously, the GKers are off the line on all the kicks (as expected), but for all the other kicks, the GK makes a single, continuous motion in preperation for the strike (i.e., they jump forward and land ahead of the line as the ball is struck). On the one called back, the GK walks a foot off the line and then does the same move. I believe that the referee is really calling this initial walk, or in essence, the GK lining up in an illegal position.
     
  15. RichM

    RichM Member

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    Salazar doesn't appear to be watching the kicker's run-up to the ball at all. It seems that this should be his primary focus, since there could be infractions and/or misconduct there, and let the AR cover the goal line/GK movement.
     
  16. NC Soccer United

    NC Soccer United BigSoccer Yellow Card

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    It was definitely walking beyond the line. Good call by Salazar.
     
  17. jayhonk

    jayhonk Member+

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    Hence, the Seattle fans are crying that the ref should not have allowed the kick to proceed, since the GK was off the line before the kick. I cant tell if they are being purposely obtuse, or what.

    An 8 inch bunny hop is pretty standard; this is a step forward and reset. Salazar's unusually forward position makes the call almost expected.

    (But, I am a KC fan.
    And the 3rd ref on the boards who was at the 'other' end of the field.
    What's up with that?)
     
  18. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm genuinely curious how you reconcile saying Salazar made a good call with your criticism of Pedersen, particularly this from the other thread:

    I recognize that the calls are different, but they are also very similar insofar as they are rarely called, have a huge impact on the result and are violations that are often overlooked. For better or worse, these are both technically correct calls that are often viewed as a referee unfairly inserting themselves in a match.

    Not a gotcha question, but interested in hearing why you think they are different to the extent that Pedersen should have given "ample" public warnings, while Salazar can just make this call?
     
  19. NC Soccer United

    NC Soccer United BigSoccer Yellow Card

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    PK situations are not considered a minor technical infraction in the spirit of the game. I have called retakes many times because gk was way off the line. I am talking multiple steps. This is entirely different than calling a six second violation, which is rarely called. There is a high degree of cynicism in PK situations and the standard has been set that one step is trifling, but multiple steps requires a retake if no goal.
     
  20. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator Staff Member

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    Ok. That's a reasonable answer. I guess I just didn't see this one being as blatant as you or some others--most importantly Salazar--see it. But as I said above, it does come down to the opinion of the referee.
     
  21. joe-soccer

    joe-soccer Member

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    Jayhonk, I sure hope you are not referring to my earlier post in the other thread when you say that. I thought I made it clear I wasn't taking that position. Usually in this forum, quoting the law to clarify a point of discussion seems to be well received.

    If I am mistaken, my apologies for sounding defensive. But otherwise, I would rather not be painted with the crying fan brush when I went out of my way to say I had no position on the call, and I hadn't even seen the incident. Joe
     
  22. CanadaFTW

    CanadaFTW Member

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    I think the key is that their was a clear standard in the referees head, applied equally to both sides, and when one side went past that standard, the call was made. This results in the one that was called back being the most egregious violation of the rule and everyone knowing what the standard was going forward.

    On the 6 second violation, there was no clear standard, it wasn't applied equally to both teams, and the one called wasn't even in the top 10 violations of the rule in the match. The result was that the next time a GK held the ball, they exceeded the time of the one called, with no call!

    So while both can be considered in the ticky-tack category, Salazar gave a demonstration of how to make this sort of call, whereas Pedersen gave a demonstration on what not to do.
     
  23. CKRef22

    CKRef22 Member

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    In my opinion, Nielsen's save on Tiffert's kick was just as bad as Gspurning's on the next one. But my opinion doesn't really matter.
     
  24. nicklaino

    nicklaino Member

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    How long has this official been an official?

    I think if you asked officials in the premiership they would not have made that call on that play.

    If you asked any older retired premiership official they might say in all their years doing games they never saw a keeper leave their line on any pk. Of course they have, but they never called it. I have asked a premiership official that question, and that is what he told me.

    We have the argentine keeper who was in the 1990 WC and Briana Scurry for taking leaving their line way to far to thank for calls like this.

    The good news at least the US open cup is being given some coverage at least.
     
  25. GreatGonzo

    GreatGonzo Member+

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    Yeah, this seems accurate to me. Both goalies tend to step forward at around the same time that the kicker puts his plant foot down, but in the one that was called back, Gspurning was off the line while Espinoza still had to take two steps and the shot. He's off the line for at least a full second before the shot.
     
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