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What exactly qualifies Martin Vasquez?

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by TheNearPost, Feb 15, 2013.

  1. TheNearPost

    TheNearPost Member+

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    Bingo. On the money again.

    So, at this point, my conclusion is that the main reason Sunil Gulati hired Juergen is because he is a smooth talker, and because he finally had a guy willing to actually try and improve the overall quality of American soccer. Even make it attractive. Sunil knew he was getting a results-based coach in Bob Bradley, but Juergen was a long-term guy.

    Which makes me believe that even if we don't qualify, which is still fairly far-fetched at this point, we still won't see a change of guard unless all 11 players bring out their yoga mats in the Azteca and allow Mexico to dance around them as they practice their Sun Salutations.
     


  2. Mr Martin

    Mr Martin Member+

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    Based on this thread and some comments I read today in another thread, here is the scenario that I am now worried about for the US:

    The USSF hired Klinsman as a visionary spokesperson/consultant. He wasn't really hired to train the players and teach them on a day-to-day basis during those long training camps. What JK brings is the "vision thing" (anyone remember GHW Bush?), and he then acted as a middle man and hired Martin Vasquez as the nuts and bolts training coach. So, effectively the USSF has spent in excess of $2.5 million per year to get Martin Vasquez to train the US National Team. Yeah, Klinsi's generally great on TV, but Vasquez is a coach with multiple failures on his resume and he's the guy teaching the squad. If anyone had said, "let's get a current or former MLS coach to train the US National Team," I don't think Martin Vasquez would have made the top-20 list. But there he is, training our guys to play Klinsi's vision.

    Please someone, talk me out of this horrible scenario. Please!
     
  3. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

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    Where is this coming from?
     
  4. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

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    Vasquez is not the head coach.
     


  5. TheNearPost

    TheNearPost Member+

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    Yet his role is clearly quite important. That, of course, is not to say that the spot of assistant coach is ever not important (I'm not completely sure how much Mike Sorber had to do with Bob Bradley's final decisions on game-day, player selection, practice, etc). However, there was a particularly massive amount of credit brought to Jogi Low after Germany as the tactician behind the whole deal.

    So, that being said, is it not, at least in this instance, crucial that the man who is in this role have approvable credentials?

    Let me ask you another question - do you think Martin Vasquez has approvable credentials for this job, especially given Juergen's dependence upon a strong mind in said role?
     
  6. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

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    As I said before, an assistant coach (and the entire coaching staff) is ....



    Oh and Chris Woods ain't exactly all that and a bag of chips either.
     
  7. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

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    Add 3) they are getting paid a lot more than other people with 10 times the experience earn. If, like some posters, you associate value to price, he must be a gifted manager indeed.

    If he were not so gifted, why would the USSF be paying him 10 millions/4 years after only about 2 years of actual coaching experience? It'd make no sense whatsoever! Heck, it took Guud Hiddink 14 years of managerial experience before he started getting paid that much with the Netherlands!
     
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  8. TheNearPost

    TheNearPost Member+

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    But he's also Juergen's responsibility, to an extent. If this is a guy who has the kind of swing that Jogi Low did, then both deserve a fair amount of criticism.
     
  9. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

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    Kilinsmann is responsible for everything. Regardless of what his employees do, the captain goes down with the ship ... we just hope it doesn't come to that.
     
  10. Tejas

    Tejas Member+

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    Well if it is indeed true that Juergen's talents are mostly about the grand vision and not really with the Xs and Os or application then it would seem like we would want a really good tactician in there as his assistant to balance things out. The problem being that there is nothing in Vazquez' limited coaching history to suggest that he is a standout tactician or a standout anything when it comes to coaching. Which leaves us where we are now with a lot of people seemingly hoping (with very little justification to do so) that there is some sort of still emerging genius or even above average coaching acumen somewhere on JKs coaching staff.

    I sincerely hope that they rise to the occasion somehow, but if this program continues to go sideways I think we will have learned a very hard lesson with this experience. Namely, that the US national team program is still not nearly talented enough to take a flyer on an experimental coach with a vague track record and an appealing philosophy. Also, that we still need coaches who have enough experience and savvy to make the most of the limited talent at our disposal. The interesting part for me is that it seems to reinforce the fact that we shouldn't undervalue a good coaching track record simply because it may have happened strictly in the US domestic ranks (College & MLS). That kind of coaching experience might still do a lot more with our program than someone who has had a lot of exposure to all of the headline aspects of the international game but only limited coaching experience.

    Either way, this focus on an assistant coach is just a desperate way of saying that we are pretty sure we aren't going to get what we need or expected from the head coach.
     
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  11. TheNearPost

    TheNearPost Member+

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    Completely on point.
     
  12. DearGodNotBornstein

    DearGodNotBornstein Member

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    Except everyone has strengths and weaknesses. The problem is that yours and your assistants' (all of them) shouldn't overlap a lot.
     
  13. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

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    If the strength is "taking mid table teams all the way to the bottom," we may have significant overlap.
     
  14. ebbro

    ebbro Member+

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    Some "learned" (read: knew) this long ago. Many on here were saying a similar thing before JK was hired.
     
  15. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    TheHoustonHoyaFan Member+

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    What were Lowe's credentials when JK first brought him on for the German MNT job?:)
     
  16. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

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    True. He was a 'nobody' in germany coaching in the second division at the time, right? He got his big break because of JK.
     
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  17. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    TheHoustonHoyaFan Member+

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    He had bounced around after several failures but was coaching in Austria when JK called.
     
  18. TheNearPost

    TheNearPost Member+

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    This right here shows that you did not read the original post, in which I CLEARLY showed Jogi's coaching past.

    Germany with Juergen was the one that caught everyone's eye, but he also took VfB Stuttgart to the final of the European Cup Winner's Cup (which we now know as the Europa League), where his side lost 1-0 to Chelsea. The season before, he won the DfB Pokal, the German version of the FA Cup. He finished in third place with Fenerbahce in 1998-1999. He then had two seasons in a row where he was fired for poor results at Karlsruher SC in Germany and Adanaspor in Turkey respectively. Loew then took Tirol Innsbruck to an Austrian championship in 2002, but the club was liquidated that same year. Then he had an iffy season with Austria Wien, with 15 wins, 8 draws, and 8 losses.

    So I wouldn't say Jogi was a, " 'nobody' ," when he was hired by Juergen. He had won a few championships in his time, and going to the Europe League final is no easy task. Juergen and Jogi had also had met at coaching school, if I'm not mistaken, so their previous acquaintance probably helped.
     
  19. Mr Martin

    Mr Martin Member+

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    It comes from my worry about quotes from the following February 4, 2013 article:
    http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/66/u...gg-how-klinsmann-put-together-his-us-coaching

    The quotes indicate that Vasquez takes a leading role in scouting the players to be called in, preparing the training sessions, and running the training. He is specifically the lead trainer for defensive organization, and he handles more of the tactical group discussions due to his English language advantages.

    In other words, while Klinsi had a guy in Loew training the German team, a guy who won the DFB Cup, an Austrian League Title, and advanced to the finals of the European Cup Winners Cup with Stuttgart, The USA gets Martin Vasquez, whose only head coaching stint was one year with Chivas USA in which the team had a poor record and failed to make the playoffs -- yes, failed to make the MLS playoffs.

    Is the USSF paying Klinsi $2.5 million per year to delegate the scouting and training and group tactical teaching to a 1-year failed MLS coach?

    That's my worry.
     
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  20. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    TheHoustonHoyaFan Member+

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    Loew was not considered a tactician or even a respected coach inside the DFB before JK brought him in. The DFB and German media resisted Loew's appointment instead pushing for The Kaiser's old deputy who was thought of as a master tactician.

    Loew's reputation as a detailed tactician arose because JK talked him up to the media as here:

    Klinsmann: If Joachim Löw (Klinsmann's assistant coach) is better at noticing wrong positioning strategy, I can't cut him off just because I'm the head coach. I have to hold myself back and observer why and how Jogi (Löw) does and explains things.

    http://www.spiegel.de/international...important-to-be-hungry-for-more-a-415106.html
     
  21. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

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    OH! So that was your opinion... I thought you were quoting some article.

    Isn't that the norm though? According to sidefootsitter this is nothing new for 'european' coaches to not be so hands on with training, and leaving the majority of work to the trainers below? No?

    While I agree, right now it's worrying that his training staff isn't up to par with what BS posters would expect if it were pieced together by BS....

    But these are his guys. He trusts them for a reason, and just like Loew who was in a BAD moment in his career when JK brought him only to coach one of the TOP NT's in the country... I think I am willing to trust the guy. Hell, if this team goes down in flames I am sure Vazquez, and Hertog will go with him and a tarnished reuputation.

    That's how it works with many coaches. Same wtih player selections. It's not necessarily about resumes, but more about trust, and trust in the abilities of said trainers. I am sure people were pissed with JK when he was hired for Germany because he was just an ex superstar getting the biggest role of his life, and then bringing a mediocre coach at best who was at his worst point in his career when called on to be his assistant.

    JK has balls, and trusts his connections. For good and for bad, they're here to stay. We'll see how it goes....

    Don't get me wrong... I get the fear. I felt the same way, for example with Tommy Soehn for DCU. He screwed up a great team, and brought a nobody assitant in Chad Ashton...who still's at the club. Hasn't been the same since he ruined things... but that's just my opinion.
     
  22. Mr Martin

    Mr Martin Member+

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    But, he WAS a legitimate coach. Between 1996 and 2004, Loew was a head coach of various teams for some 8 years. He had two very good seasons as head coach of Stuttgart, winning the DFB Cup, finishing as high as 4th in the Bundesliga, and getting his team to the Cup Winners Cup Final vs Chelsea. Then he won another title in Austria, even though that club had serious financial problems.

    Martin Vasquez has ONE YEAR as a head coach on his resume -- his failure at Chivas USA. And Chivas was coming off 4 consecutive Playoff seasons (2006, 2007, 2008, 2009) when Vasquez took over for the 2010 season, so that team was not the disaster we associate with Chivas in 2012 and presumably 2013.

    Loew may not have been a coaching legend back when Klinsi took him on as top assistant for the German National Team. But compared to Vasquez, Loew was a long-time coaching genius. A serious professional coach with serious success on his resume.
     
  23. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

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    If you want to compare it that way then, how about we look at what options JK would have from american coaches.

    Don't forget, it's all aobut who JK knows and trusts. I know BS would love to have a reality show where htey can choose staff and see how they work together, but that's not how real life works.

    At the end of the day, they are Germany, Loew is German. Yes, his resume is impressive compared to Vazquez, but can't you compare his resume to any MLS coach and get to the same assumption? JK has at the end of the day American connections to mostly work with...
     
  24. TheNearPost

    TheNearPost Member+

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    That's not even the main point here. I'm focused on the fact that Martin Vasquez has nothing on his record to make anybody believe that he's a quality coach. At all.
     
  25. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

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    Again, Loew is a 'nobody' when you add the level of coaching he was at when he was HIRED by one of the top nations in the world.

    It's like Brasil finding an ex mediocre ex player/coach struggling from job to job since finding some form years before... when they have some very STRONG assistant coaches who I am sure German fans were chomping at the bit saying deserved to be there next to JK.

    You gotta compare apples to apples.

    We aren't on the level of Germany soccer wise, fan wise, coaching wise, etc.
     

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